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Why 29th became 18th
Hi, not really my era, but why did the 29th become 18th? and when would they have changed the badge? Thanks in advance Mike
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#2
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I am watching this thread out of interest. I do not know very much about the 29th Light Horse except that it existed and by 1914 it was a gap in the numbering.
About the 18th, I do know that in 1907 the 18th Mounted Rifles was raised, in 1920 they were redesignated The Manitoba Mounted Rifles, in 1946 they became an Artillery Battery. I have no idea about any connection between the two. Can you explain what information you have? After all this time without any reaction to your question it seems that nobody of the Canadian badge collectors here seems to have any idea BTW, nice badge with a fierce looking animal
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Henk Interested in the lineage of the unit your badge represents? Try: Regimental lineages |
#3
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Hi Henk, I was wondering too! According to Mazeas the 29th became the 18th and the badge seems to bear that out as only the number changes, but what why and when are a mystery. Hope all is well with you and good to see you still enjoying the forum, have a happy Xmas and a good New Year, best wishes Mike
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#4
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Hello Mike,
All is fine here. Thanks for the well wishing. The same to you. So there is a similar badge with 18th Light Horse in it? The 18th Mounted Rifles I mentioned had a different badge with a bulldog (or something similar) in it
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Henk Interested in the lineage of the unit your badge represents? Try: Regimental lineages |
#5
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Hi Henk, the 18th was called 18th Canadian Light Horse and appears to have a better representation of a lynx if that is what it is. The one on the 29th looks like a hoary old man with cat's ears. In Mazeas it is no. C.43, best wishes Mike
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#6
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Well Mike, it looks that not many Canadian members here know much about this regiment
Some speculations: The 26th and 27th started life in 1910. The 28th did so in 2011. The 30th and 31st came from British Columbia into the line in 1912. My speculation: the 29th dates from 1911/12. The 18th Mounted Rifles is from 1908 and the starting dates of the regiments "around" it confirm that that is within the range to be expected. As the 18th was not disbanded as far as I know, how could it's place be taken by an 18th Canadian Light Horse after 1912???? PS, I am trying to keep this thread alive in the hope that someone with knowledge might stumble into it. I can be nasty.
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Henk Interested in the lineage of the unit your badge represents? Try: Regimental lineages |
#7
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Hi Mike,
I am a bit further. I found an 18th Canadian Light Horse badge in the Canadian Project post 1920 part here on the forum: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/can...orse/index.htm As you said it is Mazeas C.43. But there you see it in the context of it's neighbours. Preceded by the New Brunswick Dragoons (the former 28th) and followed by the BC units (former 30th and 31st). Thus it seems that it got the new title in 1920 (like the others), but were most of the others lost numbering this was renumbered. It is a riddle to me why the number 18. (Well, the former 27th became the 14th, but why?) The badge shown has btw what looks to me a QVC for a post 1920 designation.
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Henk Interested in the lineage of the unit your badge represents? Try: Regimental lineages |
#8
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Found it in dhh-lineages: http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/dhh-...-10rdc-eng.asp
Quote:
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Henk Interested in the lineage of the unit your badge represents? Try: Regimental lineages |
#9
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Hi Henk, hope you had a good Xmas and New Year. The above explains the when but not the why, and not when the new badge appeared. Was it taken into use simultaneously, or old stock used up, or maybe had to wait for a new design? Maybe someone in Canada knows? Best wishes Mike
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#10
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Hello Mike,
All went fine here over the upgrading to the next year. Nice to hear it is the same with you. The renumbering was part of the general reorganisation after the Great War in 1920. The infantry regiments all lost their numbers. It seems that the cavalry did a bit different. Some kept their number. Some lost it. Others got new number (like our 29th > 18th). As far as I can see it: 1st > 1st 2nd > 2nd 2rd > 3rd 4th > 4th 5th > dropped the number 6th > 6th 7th > 7th 8th > 8th 9th > dropped the number and got a different title, in 1924 reverted to old title (without the number) 10th disbanded in 1913 > re-raised 1928 with the same number and title 11th > 11th 12th > 12th 13th > 13th 14th > dropped number and got different title, in 1925 reverted to old title (without the number) 15th > 15th 16th > 16th 17th > 17th 18th > dropped the number 19th > 19th 20th > dropped the number 21st > dropped the number 22nd > dropped the number 23rd > 23rd 24th > 9th 25th > 10th (hm, strange, seems to have had the same 10th as above from 1928) 26th > dropped the number 27th > 14th 28th > dropped the number 29th > 18th 30th > dropped the number 31st > 5th 32nd > dropped the number 33rd disbanded in 1914 34th > dropped the number Many of those that dropped the number also changed their title. Either a small change like Horse to Mounted Rifles, or a complete different one. That is not in the list above. So this is the "what". But now the "why". It looks like a rather arbitrary action. But we really need some native Canadian to help us further I am afraid.
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Henk Interested in the lineage of the unit your badge represents? Try: Regimental lineages |
#11
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Hi Henk, still no why or when, best wishes Mike
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#12
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The "when" is clear. That is as long as you accept my posts above where I state that is was the 1920 (post Great War) reorganisation.
I was just busy the last week to create tables about the Canadian Volunteer Militia and can show a preliminary result: Quote:
The 1920 designations are in bold Many of the regiments had an earlier existence, but the dates above are those when they where incorporated in the "line" after 1893. ---------- First a remark about numbering. IMHO the Canadians did not use the numbering sequence as a measure of seniority. Vacant numbers did not lead to renumbering of the sequence and where used for later new raisings. This is also true in the infantry. The following is purely my speculation! In 1920 the cavalry was split into two categories. The first, as I see it related to the traditional way of cavalry usage, kept their numbers. The second, as I see it related to the more modern form of Mounted Rifles, lost their numbers. Note that some of the designations contradict my suggestion about being Mounted Rifles or not. In any case there where two groups now. The numbered group having many gaps in their numbering. This was repaired by renumbering the higher ones into to vacant places. Thus many of the old (mostly lower numbered)) regiments kept their number. A special case is the 23rd Alberta Rangers, which seems to be an exception when looking at the table above. But it was merged into the Alberta Mounted Rifles in 1921 and in fact thus not surviving the complete reorganisation, wich took of course some time to be implemented. ---------- I hope that the "when" is clear now. And that we have some more insight into the "why". Still strange that no Canadian member here is able to help us. All the best
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Henk Interested in the lineage of the unit your badge represents? Try: Regimental lineages |
#13
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Hi Henk, the when was as to when the badge was actually worn. If the Canadians were anything like the British, the official name change or authorisation of a badge does not accurately reflect the actual taking up of wearing the badge, best wishes and thank you for all the effort, Mike
Last edited by fearnaught; 17-02-17 at 02:59 PM. |
#14
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Somehow, this thread flew under the radar for me. Perhaps with the members with Henk and Mike, I assumed it was about Aussie units.
Henk what is the source(s) for your table? The numerical designations are essentially the seniority ofthe regiments both for the infantry and the cavalry, but with some exceptions. For example, the 51st Hemmingford Rangers was disbanded and the number was realloted to the 51st Soo Rifles in 1913. Understanding the evolution of the Canadian armoured corps and the Canadian infantry is a phd thesis. More information below.
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Res ipsa loquitur Last edited by Bill A; 22-03-17 at 03:20 PM. |
#15
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The Governor General's Body Guard → The Governor General's Body Guard→amalgamated 9th Mississauga Horse 1936→Governor General's Horse Guard
1893: 1st Hussars → 1st Hussars→no major changes 1893: 2nd Dragoons → 2nd Dragoons→amalgamated with 10 Brant Dragoons 1936→converted to artillery 1946 1893: 3nd Prince of Wales' Canadian Dragoons → 3nd Prince of Wales' Canadian Dragoons→amalgamated with Peterborough Rangers to form Prince of Wales Rangers→converted to artillery 1946 1893: 4th Hussars → 4th Hussars→amalgamated with 5 Princess Louise Dragoon Guards 1936 to form IV Princess Louise Dragoon Guards→Supplementary Order of Battle (SOB) 1965 1893: 5th Dragoons → 1901: merged into 6th Duke of Connaught's Royal Canadian Hussars→1903 the number was re-assigned to 5th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards (see above and below) 1903: Princess Louise Dragoon Guards → 1903: 5th Princess Louise Dragoon Guards → The Princess Louise Dragoon Guards→see above 4 Hussars 1893: 6th Duke of Connaught's Royal Canadian Hussars → 6th Duke of Connaught's Royal Canadian Hussars→amalgamated with the 17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars 1958 to form the Royal Canadian Hussars 1903: 7th Hussars → 7th Hussars→amalgamated with 11th Hussars 1936 to form 7th/11th Hussars→amalgamated with the Sherbrooke Regt RCAC 1965 to form the Sherbrooke Hussars 1893: 8th Princess Louise's New Brunswick Hussars → 8th Princess Louise's New Brunswick Hussars→no major changes, except the regiment had a permanent force and reserve force component 1958-circa 1993 1903: 9th Toronto Light Horse → 1907: 9th Mississauga Horse → The Ontario Mounted Rifles→redesignated Mississauga Horse 1924→amalgamated with GGBG to form GGHG (see above) 1903: 10th Queen's Own Canadian Hussars → 1913: disbanded→reactivated with this designation 1928 but disbanded again 1936 1903: 11th Hussars → 11th Hussars→see above 7th Hussars 1903: 12th Manitoba Dragoons → 12th Manitoba Dragoons→SOB 1965 1903: 79th Shefford and Brome Regiment → 1903: 13th Scottish Light Dragoons →13th Scottish Light Dragoons→disbanded 1936 1903: King's Canadian Hussars → 1903: 14th King's Canadian Hussars →The King's (Nova Scotia) Mounted Rifles→King's Canadian Hussars 1925→converted to artillery 1939 1910→raised as 27th Light Horse, redesignated 14 Canadian Light Horse 1920→redesignated 14th Canadian Hussars 1940→VIII Recce (wartime designation)→SOB 1965 1905: 15th Light Horse → 15th Canadian Light Horse→amalgamated with South Alberta Horse (no number) to form 15 Alberta Light Horse→artillery 1946→amalgamated with South Alberta Regt 1954 to form South Alberta Light Horse 1905: 16th Mounted Rifles → 1908: 16th Light Horse → 16th Canadian Light Horse→amalgamated with Saskatchewan Mounted Rifles to form 16th/22nd Saskatchewan Horse (22nd appears to be perpetuated by Sask Mounted Rifles)→converted to artillery 1946 1907: 17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars → 17th Duke of York's Royal Canadian Hussars→see above 6th Hussars 1907: 18th Mounted Rifles → The Manitoba Mounted Rifles→originally 29th Light Horse, redesignated to 18th in 1921→converted to artillery 1936 1908: 19th The Alberta Mounted Rifles → 1911: 19th Alberta Dragoons → 19th Alberta Dragoons→SOB 1965 1908: 20th Mounted Rifles → 1910: 20th Border Horse → The Border Horse→amalgamated 12th Manitoba Dragoons 1936 1908: 21st Alberta Hussars → The Alberta Mounted Rifles→reorganized as two regiments Alberta Mounted Rifles and South Alberta Horse 1931→Alberta Mounted Rifles amalgamated 19th Alberta Dragoons 1936 1908: 22nd Saskatchewan Light Horse → The Saskatchewan Mounted Rifles→see above 16th Horse 1908: 23rd Alberta Rangers → 23rd Alberta Rangers→amalgamated with 21st Hussars to from Alberta Mounted Rifles 1920 1908: 24th Grey's Horse → 9th Grey's Horse→number reallocated from 9th Miss Horse 1921, disbanded 1936 1909: 25th Brant Dragoons → 10th Brant Dragoons→see 2nd Dragoons above 1910: 26th Stanstead Dragoons → The Eastern Township Mounted Rifles→converted to artillery 1936 1910: 27th Light Horse → 14th Canadian Light Horse→see 14th CLH above 1911: 28th New Brunswick Dragoons → The New Brunswick Dragoons→disbanded 1936 (HQ sqn amalagamated with St John Fusiliers 1911: 29th Light Horse → 18th Canadian Light Horse→see above 18th CLH 1912: 30th Regiment British Columbia Horse → The British Columbia Mounted Rifles→redesignated British Columbia Dragoons 1929 1912: 31st Regiment British Columbia Horse → 5st British Columbia Light Horse→5th BC Light Horse 1920→British Columbia Hussars 1932→converted to artillery 1939 1912: 32nd Light Horse → 1912 : 32nd Manitoba Horse → The Manitoba Horse→amalgamated Fort Garry Horse 1936 1912: 33rd Vaudreuil and Soulanges Hussars → 1914: disbanded 1912: 34th Regiment of Cavalry → 1913: 34th Fort Garry Horse → The Fort Garry Horse→no significant change, in 1958 the regiment activated a regular force component, which was disbanded in 1970. The reserve component continues. 1913: 35th Central Alberta Horse → 35th Central Alberta Horse→disbanded 1921 1914: 36th Prince Edward Island Light Horse → The Prince Edward Island Light Horse→amalgamated with the PEI Highlanders to form the PEI Regiment 1946
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Res ipsa loquitur Last edited by Bill A; 22-03-17 at 03:21 PM. |
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