11th Cloth Pagri Badge

[Rob Miller]

Just received this in the post, pity about the condition but if it had been better I probably wouldn't have been the only bidder.

I presume it is XI rather than IX, but the colours seem right for Devonshire.

Can anyone suggest a date/period please?

Rob

[Mike Jackson]

Not much consolation, but I had a near mint example once - helmet flash size. My note - all that remains - attributed that design to 1 Devons. My records show that most other Devons battalions (and 86 ATk Regt) in WW2 wore a Green/Red/Green rectangular flash (c 16mm x 67mm.. Mike

[Peter Brydon]

I think that if you specialise in the insignia of one regiment or County you are happy to add even items in this condition to your collection because an example in any condition is better than not having an example at all and of course we all live in hope that one day ( soon !! )a better example will turn up.

P.B.

[jf42]

Originally Posted by Rob Miller

Just received this in the post, pity about the condition but if it had been better I probably wouldn't have been the only bidder.

I presume it is XI rather than IX, but the colours seem right for Devonshire.

Can anyone suggest a date/period please?

Rob

XIth North Devonshire Regiment. Facings: Lincoln Green

1st Bn India 1864-1877; 1st Devons India 1892< 1908
2nd Bn Cape/Natal (Japan 1861-1870 ) India 1877-1894 (2nd Devons from 1881)

Without knowing if the later stipulations restricting use of pagris to certain hot weather postings (which excluded the Cape etc.) applied to the earlier models of sun helmet, and not knowing how long the Devonshire Regiment might have continued to use the number 'XI' unofficially-

- it would seem that India in the 1870s- early to mid- for the 1st Bn XI and later (extending into the early 1880s?) for 2nd Bn XIth are the most likely date parameters.

The 1st XIth might have had pagris on the earlier airpipe helmets in India from 1864, but the later back one goes the likelihood of an article like this surviving is reduced - it looks like it was touch and go as it is!

Those dates are from the archived regiments.org site.
http://web.archive.org/web/200801130...f/011Devon.htm

[jf42]

An additional thought occurs; more of a question really, which is whether in the date ranges I suggested a metal badge on the pagri would have been more likely.

The coarseness of the weave on the background material in facing colour, does suggest a campaign or wartime measure, although I don't know how much that might be a factor of age. Am I right in thinking I see mud on the reverse?

Somebody will correct me but I believe FS helmet covers were first seen in general use in the Afghan war of 1878-80. However, although the first few helmet ID flashes were seen in use in the Sudan 1884-85, we don't find them in general use until the 1898 Nile campaign and 2nd Boer War when they were either attached to bush hat pagris or sewn on helmet covers.

is it possible this is what this 'XI' patch was used for?

I think it would be useful to know to what extent the Devonshires used the number 'XI' as an unofficial regimental emblem after 1881. Presumably their facings were officially changed to English white at that date. Most Regiments didn't successfully lobby for a return to their traditional facing colours until after 1900 but a non-regulation insignia might well have used the old facing colour before that.

[Postwarden]

I have just come across some contemporary notes made by a military artist in wartime Britain.

He records your XI on two occasions in 1945 worn on the pagri on the right hand side of the bush hat without a cap badge on the left or turned up side but with Devon in black on both shoulder straps. One soldier was wearing the golden arrow sign of 7th Indian Division, the other that of 2nd British Infantry Division. Although I can't find 1st Devons in either of those divisions, the 1st were the only Devon's battalion to serve in India so 1st Bn it must be.

A scan of a complete example is attached

Jon

[Rob Miller]

Thanks everyone.

Jon, I would never have guessed it could be as late as that, fascinating.

Rob

[Peter Brydon]

If I had something similar to the Kings or a Liverpool/ Lancashire unit I would, for display purposes, superimpose the damaged item over a good life size ( matt ) photocopy of a complete original.

P.B.

( Apologies to both members for using their pictures this way)

[Rob Miller]

Hi Peter

Its an idea, at some point I'm thinking of displaying some badges at a few local military vehicle events, but as yet I haven't worked out the format or the best way of protecting them from the sun.

At the moment preserving and identifying are my priorities.

Rob

[jf42]

Originally Posted by Rob Miller

Thanks everyone.

Jon, I would never have guessed it could be as late as that, fascinating.

Rob

Indeed! That is satisfying.

The 1st to 25th regiments, being 2-battalion regiments already, could maintain their identities fairly intact after the amalgamations of 1881, and so would have been able to keep using the old number unofficially without too much difficulty; as did the KRRC (60th) and The Black Watch, RHR (who as the 42nd absorbed their junior partner, the 73rd, fairly comprehensively).

[Postwarden]

I've just come across this picture in my files of the badge worn on an officer's tropical helmet.

Jon

[Rob Miller]

Well this badge certainly had its origins prior to WW2, this photo came from a large lot listed on ebay described as being c1931 Quetta India.

Rob

[Toby Purcell]

Interesting that the man far right as we look has the older, Wolseley pattern helmet, and the rest the replacement, Solar Topee.