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#31
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That's a super rare survivor Bill, thanks for posting it. Interestingly the two regiments both wore the badges in DRs on the Torin style field cap.
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#32
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Apologies for the delayed reply. I understand your desire for absolute concrete proof, but I'm afraid I cannot provide that. I haven't been a collector for many years now, and have no interest in reproductions of original badges, but for a long time I have studied uniforms and insignia. That is my deep and abiding interest. In the mid 1980s I was on duty in London District and in return for a favour I was given permission to go to Windsor and spend a few hours of down time in the Household Cavalry Museum in Combermere Barracks. It wasn't as good then as it is now, and had just a few displays, and not very many visitors, but I was allowed to look at some stuff from the reserve collection and the photographic archive. It was pre-internet of course and I just took some handwritten notes, as I looked at what I could, especially the wonderful photos with a linen tester. I paraphrased from those few notes what I posted earlier. Looking again at the dates that I noted down, there were apparently no badges on the men's SD caps until 1914, and they had to be rushed into service in time for mobilisation. The officers had badges on their SD, but none on their coloured forage caps. SNCOs on the regimental staff and the band also had coloured forage caps with no badges, but all the other ranks were still wearing pill box caps in that order of undress, so it would have seemed a right hotch potch to anyone outside the HC. Against 1919, I've noted that the remaining ranks were at last issued coloured forage caps and discarded their much loved pillbox caps. In 1922, the 1st and 2nd Life Guards merged and adopted a modified badge with 1st and 2nd inscribed on the bottom of the circlet. The men wore these same, SD cap badges, on their new coloured caps. There was no sealed pattern date, but it was apparently also in 1919 that the officers started to wear enameled badges, the first time they had worn badges on undress headdress. I made just two more notes, it was 1928 before the 1st and 2nd inscriptions were dropped and 'The' substituted, and last of all a suggestion that the circlet style enameled badges 'might' have been either, trial badges, or perhaps more likely superior badges for SNCOs on the regimental staff, rather like those worn by Foot Guards of equivalent rank. This was a suggestion by the archivist, a rather elderly retired member of the regiment, but there were no photos showing this, or any other evidence. I had completely forgotten this last aspect, so make of it what you will. I don't really have anything more to add. Last edited by Toby Purcell; 11-04-20 at 08:55 AM. |
#33
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Drew,
Yes, things sadly came to that, in 1991 the Secretary of State, at the MOD, Tom King, made it happen, with cuts across the board, but, the two Colonels wanted to make absolutely sure that the position of the mounted regiment should not be affected and thankfully this was accepted. In addition, by June, the MOD also agreed that both regiments would retain their identities, their uniforms, their customs and associations on the agreement that a union to form one regiment of two sabre squadrons each as well as the headquarters element must take place. The Life Guards finally returned home in October 1992 and union with the Blues and Royals took place at Combermere Barracks, I certainly can't speak for the Blues, but, I can tell you there was many a Life Guard who was hoping it would be merely a temporary arrangement. I well remember the rumours had started in 1990 and the MOD had to be dissuaded from making things public because so many soldiers were on active service in the Gulf. They do all wear the HCR badge on their forage caps and yes, as mentioned, regimental identities are retained. Regarding joining, certainly in my day for the ranker, you simply walked into the nearest careers office, sat the written exam, you were then presented with a list of jobs you were deemed suitable for, if you had O Level English Language grade C or above, some pressure was often applied to at least consider the RAMC, normally with the promise of "you still get a gun" as there was a shortage of combat medical technicians Up towards the top of the mentioned list there would be Household Cavalry RAC and Household Cavalry Dutyman this latter being public duties with the mounted squadron. Your preference regarding regiment would be taken into consideration, but, certainly from memory, was not absolutely guaranteed. These days that choice of either armour or public duties is no longer available and no matter how much of a petrol head you might be, you will end up coming face to face with Dobbin sooner rather than later. Quote:
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#34
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Household Cavalry Cap Badge (enamel)
I found the discussion here very interesting when I read it but put it to the back of my mind as I do not have the knowledge to comment.
I have just read this article (see thumbnail) and wondered if the last sentence added anything of value. Yours Aye Chris Quote:
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#35
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The final paragraph is a reference to the Forage cap badge worn by both regiments, then as now.
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#36
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I wonder how long the badge Bill has shown ( the one in 1900 Dress Regs ) was actually worn for ? And why it was binned ? Then a period of having no badge was adopted, until King George V gave them one ?
Andy
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Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#37
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The badge Bill refers to was worn only on the field service cap by officers, Andy. Unusually the other ranks wore shoulder titles on their version. It was just the forage cap that had no badge, for all ranks, as per the photos that I posted. Within the HC that was not initially seen as odd, because ORs had long worn the previous pill box cap with no badge, as had the officers with their ‘round forage cap’ (as it was designated in DRs) worn until around 1904.
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#38
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Thank you Chris, I do find that interesting, as it chimes with the remarks made to me in Combermere Barracks mentioned above. Personally I don’t accept that the enamelled badges inscribed with 1st and 2nd Life Guards and Royal Horse Guards are spurious, they seem typical to me of the slightly lesser quality provided at public expense, but nonetheless with a very rich appearance compared to those of the ranks below WO. Added together with the circumstances of time span, mergers, etc. and the relatively limited numbers of those (WO) ranks involved that I’ve described, very few would have been produced, hence their manifest rarity.
Last edited by Toby Purcell; 26-04-20 at 12:31 PM. |
#39
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Andy
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Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#40
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Sorry could you please clarify, reading this, are you now suggesting that these badges were only worn by Warrant Officers?
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#41
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The badge shown in post #10 is a genuine G&E RHG badge. |
#42
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Yes that’s what I’m suggesting based on what I was told and the article posted by Chris. I had previously thought that those with unit titles were officers badges but thinking about the regimental tradition at that time of just the other rank pattern forage cap badge having the regimental title (1st and 2nd etc) it would make sense for an enamelled version for warrant officers to follow suit. Just as with Foot Guards there is always a difference retained between the officers and other ranks badges. I realise that you don’t accept this and you are entitled to your opinion, as am I.
Last edited by Toby Purcell; 26-04-20 at 05:03 PM. |
#43
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Last edited by Toby Purcell; 26-04-20 at 05:29 PM. |
#44
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If you read the article posted by Chris, the final paragraph actually refers to a single badge worn by all the regiments with the royal cypher and the garter scroll in gilt and enamel for both warrant officers and officers.
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#45
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And I am suggesting that the badge worn by warrant officers actually had regimental titles on the circlet. Based on all other forms of officers and other ranks insignia and horse furniture, It makes sense that the the warrant officers insignia was different from officers, but with some similarities, just as with Foot Guards. Conversely, it would be completely unprecedented for the warrant officers to wear exactly the same pattern of badge as the officers. It is easy to see how two types of badge, similarly enamelled, might be confused when recorded in unofficial documentation like articles in a military historical society periodical or bulletin.
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