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  #1  
Old 26-06-17, 09:44 AM
Martyn123 Martyn123 is offline
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Default 3 Victorian pagri badges please help

Good morning

I've had these three Glengarry/pagri badges for a while and would like to know what people think about them. They appear to be helmet plate centres with desperately applied crowns. The Essex one appears to have had its lugs removed and is filed in places. The West Kent looks like it has the usual plate loops. Are these original and we're they made by the garrison?

Many thanks.
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Last edited by Martyn123; 26-06-17 at 10:00 AM.
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  #2  
Old 26-06-17, 10:18 AM
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Paul Spellman Paul Spellman is offline
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Martin,
The East Surrey if white metal is a Glengarry Badge, this does not appear to be altered to me, you do find some of the VB Bn badges of this type with a crown attached or even separate with a backplate or also in one piece. If it is Brass I would have reservations but maybe a Surrey collector can confirm if this was also made in brass for an E. Surrey Volunteer Bn.
The West Kent is a HP centre with a crown applied, there are indentations to the front were you can make out where the staple lugs have been altered and normal lugs applied which I would put down to an inexperienced restorer. I suspect this has been done to add value converting the HP to a Glengarry badge.
The Essex is also an altered HP Centre.The slider attached to make it seem like a Pagri badge, the Pagri type badges based on the HP centre did not carry a crown. Again I suspect a conversion probably recent to make out the badge is something it isn't.
I hope this is helpful
Paul

Last edited by Paul Spellman; 26-06-17 at 10:26 AM.
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  #3  
Old 26-06-17, 11:02 AM
Martyn123 Martyn123 is offline
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Default Thank you

Many thanks Paul

I bought these some time ago with little knowledge on these badges. They were luckily very cheap so great loss. I have a small Victorian badge collection, some of which I feel ok. These badges that I posted were some that I thought may be OK as they have age. But as you imply two are made out of original badges so will have some age anyway. I have posted a Gloucester badge in probably the wrong section (corps I think). Would you mind passing a verdict on that one for me.

Thanks for your time and feedback.
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  #4  
Old 26-06-17, 04:29 PM
Martyn123 Martyn123 is offline
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Default Thank you

Many thanks

The badge is brass and appears to have been blackened but heavily cleaned. Do you think that this one could ok. Many thanks
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  #5  
Old 26-06-17, 05:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyn123 View Post
Many thanks Paul

I bought these some time ago with little knowledge on these badges. They were luckily very cheap so great loss. I have a small Victorian badge collection, some of which I feel ok. These badges that I posted were some that I thought may be OK as they have age. But as you imply two are made out of original badges so will have some age anyway. I have posted a Gloucester badge in probably the wrong section (corps I think). Would you mind passing a verdict on that one for me.

Thanks for your time and feedback.
Hi Martin,
With thanks to Clare confirming the existence of a Brass (Blackened) Badge to the East Surreys 2nd VB I think your badge is ok. The toned lugs are good for the period of this badge.
With Regard to the Glosters Glengarry badge.
The pre 1881 Glengarry Badges are heavily faked or have been reproduced.
There are a few things you can look for, the badge should feel lighter than expected to hold and weigh between 14g to 17g (some larger style badges upto 20g) the lug orientation on most should be North to South with the lugs being made from brass. Original badges will always present a good clear stamping front and rear.
There should be no discolouration to the rear of the badge .
I am showing two badges I consider not right.
The 67th is a heavy 19g, it lacks a smoothness to the rear and detail to the back of the tiger,the lugs are made of copper, there is areas of dark discolouration around the lugs, I also think this badge has had a finish applied to imitate gilding to hide some of the errs of colour,I would say this is a later copy.
The 59th despite coming from a Gaunt pattern card is I believe a restrike by them using the original die, I say this because the lugs are not brass so it is not of period also Gaunt themselves were offering and making restruck badges as early as 1903/4 to the trade from their catalogues.
Paul
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  #6  
Old 26-06-17, 06:21 PM
Martyn123 Martyn123 is offline
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Default Thanks

Many thanks Paul your information is superb. I was reasonably happy with the Vols badge but was still uncertain. British badges have been really well copied it seems. I'm happy that you think this badge is probably ok. The Gloucester badge was bought fairly cheaply as I liked the design. Victorian badges are nice to have I think. Many thanks for the guidance. Do you have any ideas about the helmet plate that I posted.

Many thanks

Martyn
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  #7  
Old 26-06-17, 06:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martyn123 View Post
Many thanks Paul your information is superb. I was reasonably happy with the Vols badge but was still uncertain. British badges have been really well copied it seems. I'm happy that you think this badge is probably ok. The Gloucester badge was bought fairly cheaply as I liked the design. Victorian badges are nice to have I think. Many thanks for the guidance. Do you have any ideas about the helmet plate that I posted.

Many thanks

Martyn
Hi Martin,
I gather you mean the KOSB HP.
If so the HP centre is fine, it is post 1887 due to the title change. I am not 100% certain on the Helmet Plate, it may be the images or wear but I think it lacks some detail particularly on the laurel leaves front and rear, it would have to be handled to be sure. I suspect it did not originally pair with the HP centre as I would expect some shadow on the plate where the centre has been attached.
Paul
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  #8  
Old 26-06-17, 07:11 PM
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Hi Martyn
There is a nice East Surrey VB with good images on www.sellmymilitaria.com
for you to compare yours with.
Paul
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  #9  
Old 26-06-17, 07:14 PM
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Keith Blakeman Keith Blakeman is offline
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2nd & 4th East Surrey VB's were numbered as such. 3rd was completely different, a Maltese cross and the 1st was named as the First Surrey Rifles.
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  #10  
Old 26-06-17, 07:23 PM
Martyn123 Martyn123 is offline
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Default Thanks both

Many thanks Paul and Keith. Interesting and useful information. I will take a look at the vb badge tonight. The helmet plate may have been put with the plate centre just to display it maybe. I will have to see if I can find a better plate to put the centre on.
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  #11  
Old 27-06-17, 07:29 PM
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zzzzz

Last edited by KLR; 30-06-17 at 12:23 PM. Reason: myopia !
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  #12  
Old 27-06-17, 08:45 PM
Martyn123 Martyn123 is offline
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Default Thank you

That's interesting. Which one are you referring to?
Many thanks

Martyn
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  #13  
Old 28-06-17, 11:15 AM
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Sorry, my mistake ! I'm only slowly getting used to my new glasses !!




However, the one with a slider dates from 1903. This was to replace the 1901 two lug ones, but this slidered version never took off either !

Last edited by KLR; 30-06-17 at 12:23 PM.
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  #14  
Old 28-06-17, 11:51 AM
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Julian,
The Essex badge with the slider is a HPC that has had a slider added. The former Staple type lugs have been removed and were they once sat can be seen. A QVC crown has also been added which in effect gives it the appearance of a Glengarry badge rather than a Pagri badge which would not have a crown at all.
Paul
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  #15  
Old 28-06-17, 12:46 PM
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Top two images show the conversion of a HPC with the separate crown and backplate for the change to a Glengarry Badge.
Bottom Left shows purpose made Glengarry badges, this image shows an Officers one with 2 lugs and the OR's has 3 lugs, the other image shows a Pagri Badge with the long slider usually found on these badges, as with this type (Border Regt) it is based on the Helmet Plate Centre also less the crown, if anyone has another round type HPC design (unaltered) Pagri Badge to another Regiment to show that may prove helpful.(I cannot at the moment locate my one LNL)
Paul
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