Who, What, Where, When? #4

[leigh kitchen]

That looks spot on (I'd checked out Spanish uniforms along with half the rest of the world but didn't have any success).
I wonder exactly where & when?

[Jelly Terror]

It does indeed look spot on.

I'm assuming that 'EPOCA ALFONSO XIII', means in the reign of King Alfonso 13th, which does not help a great deal in terms of 'when', as his watch was from 1886 until 1931.

Excellent stuff so far gentleman. Thank you one and all for all your super contributions.

JT

[leigh kitchen]

A web search shows Spanish troops (on horseback, similar helmets) entering Gibraltar for a King George VI jubilee parade in 1935, I wonder if they would have done similar for Queen Victoria's 1897 jubilee?

[Toby Purcell]

The few British soldiers in the large group are wearing a mix of KD and India pattern frocks (as mentioned by Grumpy). I think that all the others are possibly Portuguese from the Colony of Goa, perhaps some kind of good will visit. The Wolseley helmets would suggest a period around 1910 +/-. As a Nation Portugal is Britain's oldest formal ally and not long after the photo was taken fought as allies on the Western Front during WW1.

[leigh kitchen]

The men in plumed helmets appear to be wearing the same uniforms & insignia as the Spanish soldiers in the photo linked by zob:

https://www.todocoleccion.net/milita...ia-s~x67930073

I hadn't twigged the significance of the Wolsley, which was in use by 1898.

British troops ex-India, now Gibraltar & retaining the frocks for non formal wear?

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

The men in plumed helmets appear to be wearing the same uniforms & insignia as the Spanish soldiers in the photo linked by zob:

https://www.todocoleccion.net/milita...ia-s~x67930073

I hadn't twigged the significance of the Wolsley, which was in use by 1898.

British troops ex-India, now Gibraltar & retaining the frocks for non formal wear?

Wolseley as early as 1898 on other ranks?
I agree about ex-India.
If the group is indeed in Gib., that wall is pretty distinctive. Gib. did not get a tick in my box, whereas Cyprus and Malta did.

[leigh kitchen]

Granted 1898's too early for ORs (I haven't pulled the book off the shelf but I believe it's in officer's Dress Regs 1900) but they were in use by ORs prior to 1910.
I couldn't come up with a reason for Spanish/Portuguese/Italian troops to be displaying their finery in Cyprus or Malta but Gib's only a millimetre from Spain & it wasn't unknown for the Spanish military to pay courtesy visits & participate in parades by the look of it.
Such an event, c1910 / 1911 with the accession / coronation of King George V?
There aren't many medal ribbons around on the British though.
From my befuddled memory of a long distant sojourn in Gibraltar, that wall rings no bells re South or Lathbury Barracks or the high walls on the march between.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by grumpy

Wolseley as early as 1898 on other ranks?
I agree about ex-India.
If the group is indeed in Gib., that wall is pretty distinctive. Gib. did not get a tick in my box, whereas Cyprus and Malta did.

Originally Posted by leigh kitchen

Granted 1898's too early for ORs (I haven't pulled the book off the shelf but I believe it's in officer's Dress Regs 1900) but they were in use by ORs prior to 1910.
I couldn't come up with a reason for Spanish/Portuguese/Italian troops to be displaying their finery in Cyprus or Malta but Gib's only a millimetre from Spain & it wasn't unknown for the Spanish military to pay courtesy visits & participate in parades by the look of it.
Such an event, c1910 / 1911 with the accession / coronation of King George V?
There aren't many medal ribbons around on the British though.
From my befuddled memory of a long distant sojourn in Gibraltar, that wall rings no bells re South or Lathbury Barracks or the high walls on the march between.

Period photographs suggest that the Wolseley was in use by staff and general officers in 1896 during the Sudan Campaign, but it was certainly popular with troops and other officers towards the end of the Boer War, and in general use throughout the Empire at the outset of WWI.

Pattern sealed in 1899, and referred to in the 1900 Dress Regs. as the Wolseley Pattern Cork Helmet... the 1904 DRs state that is was 'for service at all stations abroad'.



A great bit of kit, by all accounts

JT

[leigh kitchen]

I recall Stuart Bates book on the Wolseley mentioned that the 1904 Dress Regs also referred to it as the "Egypt helmet".
He mentioned it being worn at Omdurman but I would imagine that was by officer's.

[grumpy]

Originally Posted by Jelly Terror

Period photographs suggest that the Wolseley was in use by staff and general officers in 1896 during the Sudan Campaign, but it was certainly popular with troops and other officers towards the end of the Boer War, and in general use throughout the Empire at the outset of WWI.

Pattern sealed in 1899, and referred to in the 1900 Dress Regs. as the Wolseley Pattern Cork Helmet... the 1904 DRs state that is was 'for service at all stations abroad'.



A great bit of kit, by all accounts

JT

But DRs are for officers. Please can someone post a photo of it in wear on an OR as early as 1898? The general adoption in India was MUCH later, was it not?

[Toby Purcell]

I don't want to distract by focussing overly on the Wolseley, but my comment RE 1910 was not meant as a start date for the photo, which is why I put +/- after the date. The relevance was its wear by ORs (for whom 'dress regulations' are irrelevant), not officers who had been wearing it since the late 1890s, as you have said. For ORs it was phased in a few years after the Boer war and could initially be seen alongside the previous pattern in some units. It seemed to be fairly ubiquitous from around 1907.
I agree that Spanish forces appear a strong possibility, but that theory seems to link Indian pattern dress to Gibraltar in a rather arbitrary way (clothing regulations suggest that Gib used Home dress), so I do not think that India and Goan Portuguese should be entirely ruled out.

[grumpy]

100% agreement Toby.

[leigh kitchen]

The troops wearing plumed helmets appear to be as per the ones shown in zob's linked photo.
If they're not Spanish, then the info provided in the link that they are Spanish is wrong.
(I note that the photographer's address is the Algarve).

This site shows similar uniforms (including the Trumpeter's Hussar like frogged jacket) as Spanish. Not the best of references perhaps.

http://miniaturasmilitaresalfonscano...ceros.html?m=1

Whilst I accept that the posting of a unit from India to Gibraltar retaining its India frocks is a stretch it's the best I can think of unless the plumed chaps are Portuguese.
Are they Spanish or are they Portuguese?

[Toby Purcell]

There are strong similarities with the Spanish uniforms certainly, but I think we should see what the Portuguese were wearing too. The two nations are just over the border from each other and shared certain influences in a range of military areas, dress might be one of them.

[grumpy]

Unfortunately the splendid Vanished Armies by Haswell Miller is of no help re. the Portugese as far as I can see.
The book is a treasure, I keep having to resist having the plates cut out and framed .......... vandalism I know, but I do own two copies ..........

The British plates are simply stunningly good.

I have just checked ABE. There are lots of copies at very low prices, great value for money for anyone with militaria interests.