cloth WOs badges

[GTB]

Can anyone confirm dates of the attached WO 1 & 2 cloth embroidered rank badges? Is there a way in which to distinguish between WW1 and WW2 patterns, apart from thge backing uniform cloth which is not as easy as it sounds.

I would hazard a guess as to the larger WO2 badge being the more recent of the two, in fact current WO2 badges are similar size.

The WO1 badges are totally differing designs, obviously manufaturers variants. Would there have been this much leeway where RSMs rank badges concerned??

GTB

[manchesters]

GTB,

Those are all WW2 period. They can be recognised by their shape, size and thread styles/colour.

I have attached some of my khaki WO1 and WO11 (RQMS) badges to show the differences that can be encountered.

I have not added the bullion, metal or printed ones as that would confuse it even more.

The WW1 types can be recognised by the differences in size, colour and threads or so I believe.

regards

[manchesters]

The second lot of photos:-

[54Bty]

Nice badges, a few Canadian ones in there.

Marc

[Mike_2817]

Different Badges for Warrant Officer upto 1918 were worn. This is a copy of an article from 2007 and needs updating a little, and is based mainly on the Conductor RAOC appointment.

In 1901 the Crown within a Laurel Wreath was officially introduced as the badge for the Conductor, Army Ordnance Corps and the Staff Sergeant Major 1st Class, Army Service Corps (Priced List of Clothing and Necessities, March 1901) Sub-Conductors & WO1's had to wait till 1904 for their badge, A Large Crown, to be introduced or at least mentioned (Clothing Regulations, 1904)

See image 1

Service Dress was introduced for wear by the British Army at home in 1902, and the price list for that year (Priced List for Clothing and Necessities 1902) records badges for use with it were of (drab) worsted. By 1907 however (Priced List for Clothing and Necessities 1907) both brass and worsted badges had again been taken into wear.

Following the introduction of the rank of Warrant Officer Class II, in February, 1915, An army order was issued specifying the badges to be worn by Warrant Officers Class I and II In this order, (Army Orders 70 & 174 of 1915) the Conductor wore the Crown in Laurel Wreath, while the Sub-Conductor & WO1 wore the Royal Arms. The Large Crown being now used by the newly created Warrant Officer Class II

See Image 2

Crown in Laurel Wreath & Large Crown

It was not until October, 1918 however that the badges of rank question was finally settled (Army Order 309 of 1918) For a Conductor RAOC and Staff Sergeant Major 1st Class ASC -The Royal Arms in Laurel Wreath, and for Sub-Conductor RAOC and Staff Sergeant Major ASC - The Royal Arms.

Royal Arms in Laurel Wreath & Royal Arms
(All badges illustrated are examples as to pattern and design, and may be of a later issue)

Towards the end of 1947 (A.C.I. 991 of 1947) it was decided that, in battle-dress, the worsted badges of the Royal Arms in Laurel Wreath and the Royal Arms would be worn upon background of colour appropriate to the arm of service. The colour was to be the same as that used for the backing of Officers rank badges. (In the case of the RAOC, Red) It is not often, however that this was put into practice till the introduction of the ‘Queens Crown’ (Saint Edwards Crown) versions of the badges in 1953.

Examples of ‘Kings Crown’ (Imperial Crown) Royal Arms on a Red background and with embroidered Red piping have been noted, but so far no examples of a ‘Kings Crown’ Royal Arms in Laurel Wreath with coloured backing/surround have been seen. This may be just an example of using up existing stocks.

With thanks to manchesters images for coloured examples.

[GTB]

Simon,

A beautiful array. Thanks for sharing.
But I think I am missing something as I'm none the wiser as to how to distinguish between WW1 and WW2 badges. Could you caption the former please?

GTB

[manchesters]

GTB,

Its really a matter of opinion on a few of them as many conform to typical WW2 sizes.

But IMHO the following are possibly WW1 and before WW2 :-
WO1
1st photo. End row, 2nd from bottom
2nd photo - possibly all except bottom row centre which I think is Canadian WW2
3rd photo - none
4th photo - bottom left
5th photo - none

RQMS
1st photo - Top left
2nd photo - First row, 2nd down
3rd photo - none (mostly South African)
4th photo - 4th row, 2nd one.

These are only my opinions based on having collected such badges many years but I cant prove it.

Love to hear the thoughts of others who know about cloth rank badges of the Commonwealth.

regards

[GTB]

Many thanks for your time and information. This has been a worthwhile thread, I'm happy to say.

GTB

[GTB]

Originally Posted by manchesters

GTB,

Love to hear the thoughts of others who know about cloth rank badges of the Commonwealth.

regards

As an aside.
Malta is a part of the Commonwealth. However, upon becoming a Republic in 1974, the Royal Crown was removed from military insignia and replaced with a Tower. Strangely enough, the officers rank stars (pips) remained untouched.

GTB