livery button - coronet and W

[btns]

This is obviously a livery button. Its backmark "Charles <plumes> Jennens, London" puts it around the 1820s. The layout is "crown over letter" a very popular design with 19th century royalty
The coronet has had me puzzled for a long time. It has maltese crosses and fleur de lis, linking it to British royalty.
Does anyone know what it is?

[btns]

While looked at my own message I thought: "William".
I have been searching for a "Duke of W...".

Could it have belonged to William, Duke of Clarence and St Andrews, the later King William IV?

[Cribyn]

Hello Btns

Is it not a coronet for a prince/princess? They seem to have the maltese cross/fleur-de-lys emblems with the thistle-like object on top.

If so, it could be for Prince William who became King in 1830. The date for the backmark would be just about spot on!

Just a thought!

Regards
Roger

[btns]

Hello Roger,
Thank you. I agree, it must be Prince William.
It also identifies a very similar design. It is slightly more concave, made by Jennens & Co and has a Guelphic crown over the gothic W. It must be for William as King of Hanover.
I'll post a picture later.
best regards,

[davidwyke]

Hi Chaps

I've seen an identical button before and thought it was for William as Duke of Clarence, pre 1830. I thought the coronet was the ducal coronet but could be wrong.

I have a similar button at home for the household of William as William 1V, 1830-1837, but it has the "Georgian" royal crown. I think that's also Jennens but can't remember for sure.

David

[fougasse1940]

The coronet on the button in the first post is the coronet of the sons and daughters or brother and sisters of a sovereign of Great Britain, other than the Prince of Wales.

Rgds, Thomas.

[davidwyke]

If Thomas is correct that dates the button in question to 1820-1830 for William as younger brother of George IV, or possibly slightly earlier as son of George 111.

The button I have would then have been worn 1830-1837 when he was King William 1V, as I mentioned above.

David

[btns]

David, Thomas,
Thank you very much.
I am attaching a button with backmark of "Jennens & Co, London" (all four n's are reversed). It has a guelphic crown and same gothic letter W. It is slightly more convex than its preceding button.
Do you agree on William, King of Hanover, 1830-1837?
best regards,

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by btns

David, Thomas,
Thank you very much.
I am attaching a button with backmark of "Jennens & Co, London" (all four n's are reversed). It has a guelphic crown and same gothic letter W. It is slightly more convex than its preceding button.
Do you agree on William, King of Hanover, 1830-1837?
best regards,

Hi Btns

I think it's very likely. He was Wilhelm !V of Hanover 1830-1837 and Hanover did use the Guelphic crown.

The only slight reservation I have is that when the British kings were also kings of Hanover they seemed to have used the British royal crown more than the guelphic crown although the latter was still used. I think it was only after 1837 when Ernst August became king of Hanover that the guelphic crown was used exclusively.

David

PS......given that the British royal livery during Williams' reign used the "Georgian" royal crown (as evidenced by the button in my collection) then I suppose it makes sense that the Hanoverian royal livery would use the guelphic crown as a distinction between the two households.

PPS...... Btns - do you know if your two buttons came originally from the Jennens Pattern Books which were sold as part of the Gaunts archive through DNW years ago? The reason I ask is that some of the books of livery buttons included various royal livery and, if I remember correctly, each of the many livery buttons had the "owners" details neatly inscribed on the page. At least some of the books were subsequently broken up, it's a pity if the sellers didn't at least record the details.

[btns]

I can confirm that these buttons are from the DNW auction (and from internet resellers). They had been thrown into the foreign royalty lot. All are the same style: crown over letter(s). I find them quite hard to identify.
I have more queries if you do not mind.

[davidwyke]

Feel free to post any others, I'm sure anyone who can ID them will do.

As for me, I might be able to help with any British royal livery buttons. I have a few foreign examples in my collection which I've been able to ID so if you have any of the same I might be able to help but, to be honest, I don't know much about foreign livery buttons.

David

PS..... will be away for the next couple of weeks or maybe longer and won't be on the forum much if at all.....

[btns]

Another unidentified button: N.C.C. (or possibly A.C.C.)
I think it may be another British Royal Prince or Princess.
The mantle was a populair design for royal livery buttons, particularly in southern Europe and Brazil.
size: 19 mm, mounted, backmark erased on a lathe. My guess 1860s.
Definitely English make (or the French in disguise, serving the top end of the British market)
It is not recorded as a DNW purchase.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.