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#1
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Puggaree vs pagri
Ok all you wordsmiths out there is it Pagri or Pugaree?
Regards Terry |
#2
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Hi Terry,
To my little mind, Puggaree is in the dictionary and I couldn't find Pagri, so I try to use Puggaree........................ Dave. |
#3
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Hi GD,
No need to open a new thread re Pagri/Puggaree, if you use the Oxford dictionary ( I've used the Oxford Complete Wordfinder ), to substantiate your argument re the word ' Cartouche ' then the description of the Puggaree is included but not Pagri, simples !! Dave. Last edited by davec2; 16-06-09 at 01:20 PM. |
#4
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Cartouche/Pagri
Hello Dave - As you will have discovered, the word 'puggaree' is not English at all but Indian (originally from the Bengali) and adopted into the English language through military usage and our other imperial connections with India. The term 'pagri' is, of course, how the 19th century (and later) folk would spell the word, not knowing the correct form which, incidentally, has no direct translation from the Bengali into English so we settled for 'puggaree' (sometimes 'pugharee'). As such, 'pagri' should, I presume, be regarded as the slang spelling of the word. Great stuff, eh ? GD
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#5
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Hello again GD,
We are way off thread now but I concur totally, I would think ( me and thinking, oh dear ), that it is down to phonetics too, it is easier to say Pagri than Puggaree, me thinks. My earlier remark re chefs however, is near the mark too, the piece of circular ( normally ), paper used to cover food in a pan while on a simmer is also called a cartouche ????? Dave. |
#6
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Interestingly the term used in Dress Regulations 1900 is PUGGAREES but in Dress Regulations 1934 it has become PAGRIS.
It appears that descriptions change over a period of time, we talk about shoulder titles ( cloth and metal ) but I think they were originally called "Shoulder designations" P.B.
__________________
Interested in all aspects of militaria/military history but especially insignia and history of non regular units with a Liverpool connection Members welcome in my private Facebook group “The Kings Liverpool Regiment ( 1685-1958 )” |
#7
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Hello Peter,
Would the same not apply to the description ' device ', I have seen several badges of different types called a Helmet Device, for example, when does a Helmet Device become a Helmet Plate. I used to think I fixed my belt around my waist using a buckle but I believe the correct terminology is ' Waist Belt Clasp ' but surely it's a buckle ?? I wonder, do these, for want of a better word, quirks, only refer to Militaria ??? Dave. |
#8
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Terry, I am not an expert on Indian Army headdress or Anglo-Indian words, but what I do know is that Pagri is one of several words used for what Europeans call a turban. Turban I think comes from the Turkish language but pagri is Indian. Puggaree or pugri may be a an alternative spelling, but in New Zealand the word puggaree means the cloth band that encompasses the lemon squeezer hat. It is in the Regimental Colours or Corps Colours. No doubt this stems from a military Pagri from the old Indian Army days of the 19th Century. I am sure there must be some Indian Army buffs out there that have all the gen on this.
Rgds Quicksilver |
#9
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Pagri
Thanks to all the members who took time to answer my question.
Last edited by Alan O; 17-06-09 at 06:58 AM. |
#10
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In "Hobson-Jobson" (that wonderful glossary of Anglo-Indian words and phrases), published in 1886, under "Puggry" and "Puggerie" the first word given is "Pagri", from the Hindustani, a turban. There are also a few more spellings given: viz Pagari, Puggaree, Puckery.
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#11
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Pagri/Puggaree et al
I used to use the term Puggaree but changed it to Pagri because i didn't have to type so many letters.
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#12
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Dress Regs India 1913, para 29 states that a white pagri to be worn on the (Wolseley) Helmet, although "Regimental pattern pagris may be worn when authorised". "The Badge is worn in the centre of the pagri or on the front of the Helmet, when it is of a size which cannot be conveniently attached to the pagri".
In1926 the Gunners regularised their "pagri badges", calling them "Helmet patches". In British RA Units all ranks wore the badge upon a Red/Blue diamond on the LHS of the Helmet. In the Indian Mountain Arty the attached British officers did likewise, but the soldiers wore the same patch on the upper left arm, since they wore a "turban" without any badge. It now seems that these patches always go under the generic term of "pagri badges". Indian soldiers of other regiments at this time were distinguished usually by their shoulder titles, as well as by the colour/shape of their turbans. |
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