Cap Ribbon Info please

[Alex Rice]

Hi All
I recently picked up the 2 cap ribbons.
I assume the RNVR London one is pre 1952 due to the KC but were they in use up then or is it an earlier one?
Did the submariners ever start wearing ribbons with the ships name or do they still wear the HM Submarines ribbon?
Thanks in advance, cheers,
Alex

[Guzzman]

Hi Alex

Firstly re the RNVR tally. the Royal Naval Volunteer Reserve was formed in 1903. At first the ribbons bore 'R.N./crown over anchor/V.R.' but in 1909 the name of the division to which the man belonged was included. i.e. 'R.N.V.R./crown over anchor/LONDON.'. Such tallies remained in use until 1939. There were about ten variations of this tally, i.e. 'R.N.V.R./crown over anchor/TYNE.', 'R.N.V.R./crown over anchor/BRISTOL.', etc. and they were produced in both gold wire and gold thread. 'R.N.V.R./crown over anchor/LONDON.' is probably the most common of these tallies although they are all hard to find. Although these tallies went out of use in 1939 it wasn't until 29th June 1951 (AFO 2196/51) that tallies bearing the name of the divisional drill ship were officially used.

So your tally was in use between 1909 and 1939. Looking at it, this one was probably produced during the inter-war period but I can't be more specific than that.

Tallies issued for use in submarines have an interesting history. When the Submarine Service was first established tallies bearing 'H.M. SUBMARINES' were used. AFO 226/24 of 7th January 1924 stated that in future all cap ribbons worn by the crews of submarines were to bear the individual designation of the respective submarine instead of the 'H.M. SUBMARINES' tally. This meant that submariners tallies bore the submarine's number prefixed by 'H.M. SUBMARINE', i.e, 'H.M. SUBMARINE E12' etc. A quantity of 'H.M. SUBMARINES' cap ribbons were retained for use by spare (unallocated) crews. A variant of the submariner's tally bears the lettering 'H.M. SUBMARINE'.

The use of 'named' tallies for submarines went out of use before the Second World War, when submariners reverted to using 'H.M. SUBMARINES' tallies. Ratings serving on submarines were also authorised to wear an economy pattern ribbon bearing only the lettering 'H.M. S/M' under AFO 3481/43.

Since the end of the Second World War submariners have only worn tallies bearing the lettering 'H.M. SUBMARINES'. This is still the situation today.

Pete

[Alex Rice]

Hi Pete
Thanks for all the info, that's excellent. The HM Subs tally does look like a '60s or 70s type manufacture to me so probably a late one. The RNVR London looks a bit earlier judging by the fullstops so that ties in with the inter-war theory you have.
Thanks again. Cheers,
Alex