RND cap badges

[KLR]

I've read through the various RND threads. Could somebody please confirm that the following is correct !

Generic RND bages - only worn by officers ?

The six battalions - all genuine examples have Gaunt plaques.

What did RND ORs wear before the advent of these badges ???

RNAS - only ever had distinguishing collar badges ?

RND MGC - made by converting MGC badges ???

Many thanks, J

[Alan O]

RND are a minefield but from contempory photos before badges were issued they wore Naval cap tallies or FSH when in the Dardenelles. I have also seen RND s/ts in use ; one with a cap badge as well.

Alan

[paj1]

hi there are plenty of dealers who have rnd cap badges without gaunt plates
on them that they claim are originals . i think there was one for sale in the last bosleys postal auction . they always seem to cost a bit less than the ones with the gaunt plates . i think you will find a lot of rnd collectors with badges without gaunt plates in ther collections . but i think most collectors
would rather have them with plates so in answer to your question the jurys
" out " on they must have gaunt plates on them to be original.
to add to the six battalions you also had "benbow " and "collingwood"
battalions but they never made it to the getting a cap badge stage but they
did have metal shoulder titles.
hope this helps cheers paj1

[Sonofacqms]

Julian, some of the answers to your questions are here

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...t=12477&page=2

As for all badges having JRG plaques, I think there were other makers.

Rob

[KLR]

Thanks chaps,
My concern at the moment is which RND had 'official' cap badges.
The six battalions did not !
I wondered if there were any other RND units that had official cap badges.
(the WO sealed a RMLI badge on behalf of the Admiralty)

Regarding titles (with which I am not concerned at the moment), yes I think I knew they were worn in caps - I'll look up what I have later.

[paj1]

As for the rnd cap badges the simple answer maybe that gaunts
didnt put makers plates on all their badges ?
paj 1

[NorthStafford]

I would be very surprised if at a time when most regiments were having economy badges made the RND were having badges made with plates on them. Oit hardly sounds likely to me.

[Neil Pearce]

Alan is correct in that they did wear curved RND titles on the cap. I posted a copy of the sealed pattern on here some time ago. There were some doubts raised concerning the authenticity, but I am certain - it came from an excellent and respected source.

The armoured car section allegedly wore left and right facing single cars as collars. I am assuming that this would only have applied to officers. Likewise, there is a small type officers badge - never seen another other than the one I have. This remains a mystery, especially as it's bladed

Cheers, Neil

[Paddy]

Originally Posted by KLR

I've read through the various RND threads. Could somebody please confirm that the following is correct !

Generic RND bages - only worn by officers ?

The six battalions - all genuine examples have Gaunt plaques.

What did RND ORs wear before the advent of these badges ???

RNAS - only ever had distinguishing collar badges ?

RND MGC - made by converting MGC badges ???

Many thanks, J

Julian

As has been stated, the subject of RND badges is a bit of a minefield.

My personal opinions/observations for what they're worth are:-

Officers wore Royal Navy officer's bullion cap badges in the early days. The RN cap badge with the RNV initials was also worn as there were a large number of RNVR in the RND. The bullion badges were replaced by bronzed cap badges and there appear to have been 2 different patterns. I have pictures of both patterns in my RND album.

All genuine Bn badges have Gaunt plates:- All of the Bn badges I have do have the Gaunt plate but this is through choice and I deliberately only collected Gaunt plated badges. I am not convinced however that Gaunt was the only manufacturer (one of the officer's bronze badges I have has a Firmin London mark on it) nor that they marked all badges. I have seen examples of badges without plates which look identical to those with plates.

ORs wore Royal Naval Division cap ribbons before cap badges were available and they also wore the RND shoulder titles as cap badges.

RNAS wore the oval bronzed armoured car badge in their collars and the correct rate badge in their cap.

RND MGC badges. I have seen a very nice badge belonging to a forum member showing the MGC badge with the RND curved scroll attached with solder and strengthening pieces. While I believe this badge to be a genuine example and have heard/read the story that they were manufactured in the field workshops I am not convinced that this was the only way they were manufactured and I have a feeling that the later ones were die stamped in one piece. Tinto posted pictures of 2 such examples with Gaunt tablets about 18 months ago and they certainly looked right.

I have been lucky enough to have seen/handled the Royal Navy Museum's reserve collection of RND badges and have pictures of these badges and copies of other pictures showing various cap badges and ribbons being worn if you would like me to email them to you.

Paddy

[Sonofacqms]

Julian, why do you say that the six RND cap badges were unofficial?

[dragonz18]

Julian,
to specifically answer your questions............

Officers did not wear the Battalion badges as cap badges, only as collars.

Not all cap badges were made by Gaunts (with name plates) The origional, Admiralty paid for lot ,may well have been ?

Prior to becoming the Army's 63 (Naval) Division in mid 1916, there was a variety/combination of insignia used, Admiralty supplied , naval tallies, S/T's & numerals,etc. Battalion 'Name' titles appeared/issued in GB only( not in Gallipoli) arround mid 1915 just prior to the disbandment of Benbow & Collingwood after the June battles.
At first,these were worn in conjunction with the 'straight' RND title also.

Odd that the RNAS Armoured car section always seems to get associated with the RND, The Bronze PO's 'type' badge is the only real connection, worn for a short period only by some RND NCO's & by the RNAS (not always by NCOs either) for a much longer time.
A variety of Collar badges for Officers & NCO's (all PO's ?) were the 'main' distinction for the AC section, there.

RND MG badges were always 'made-up' using mainly early titles & badges, but later varieties exist also .

Cheers !
Steve

[KLR]

Rob,
I'm trying to sort out which 1st WW2 raised units did actually have officially sanctioned badges. The six RND battalions are not listed in the RACD list of WO demands. The fact that they have Gaunt plaques also indicates that they were private purchase. I'm not sure who did order them - the Admiralty ??
Interestingly the RACD did authorise / Seal / pay for the shoulder titles.

Oh yes, I assume the RMLI cap badge badge existed before the war and was supplied etc by the Admiralty. In 1915 however, the RACD created a Sealed Pattern for its production - presumably because they were now working with the Army ????
Julian

[dragonz18]

Julian,
to which S/T's are you refering here ?
The early 'R.N.D' or later 'RND'( a sealed pattern pic was supplied by Neil,some time back ) types or the 'Battalion Name' varieties?
The RND is a peculiar unit, 'generally' supplied by WO, but 'mostly' paid for by the Admiralty, until it's disbandenment in 1919.(from the official unit history)

Cheers !
Steve