ACF, CCF and OTC

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

I'm currently doing some work on anodised aluminium cap badges as worn by school 'cadet' units as opposed to OTC units attached to universities.

The quick question is why did some school units use the OTC title instead of CCF?

Examples are:

Epsom College OTC
Oakham School OCT, Rutland
Perse School OTC, Cambridge
etc.

What is the difference between OTC and CCF?

Regards

Chris

[2747andy]

Chris,
keeping the history side short:

In the begining there were OTCs (1850-60s) which were run at Universities and Public Schools. Good Old Mr Haldane tweeked this in 1908 the Universities organisations becoming the Senior Division with the Colleges and Schools becoming the Junior Division.

Starting in 1940 the Snr Div has some changes in title, one of which was UTC but by 1948 we had the OTCs which were affiliated to Universities and CCFs (Combined Cadet Forces) which were School/College affiliated contingents!

As far as Anodised badges go the Uni's should all be OTC (maybe the odd early UTC?) with all the rest being CCFs. The same badges can be found with different wording, i.e. Perse School OTC being a pre 1940/50s Metal badge and Perse School CCF post 50's and in Anodised!

In short:
OTCs - Universities (Over 18s)
CCFs - Public Schools and Colleges (13-18 yr olds)
ACF (Army Cadet Force) (13-18 yr olds) - Towns and Cities and under the TA organisation, not normally affiliated to an Educational establishment. Majority wear the Cap Badge of a Regular unit and do not have their own badge (there are a few exceptions).

Where ages are shown there are the permanent staff (Teachers/Instructors etc who of course and in some cases would be a lot older)

Hope this helps?

Andy

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by 2747andy

Chris,
keeping the history side short:

In the begining there were OTCs (1850-60s) which were run at Universities and Public Schools. Good Old Mr Haldane tweeked this in 1908 the Universities organisations becoming the Senior Division with the Colleges and Schools becoming the Junior Division.

Starting in 1940 the Snr Div has some changes in title, one of which was UTC but by 1948 we had the OTCs which were affiliated to Universities and CCFs (Combined Cadet Forces) which were School/College affiliated contingents!

As far as Anodised badges go the Uni's should all be OTC (maybe the odd early UTC?) with all the rest being CCFs. The same badges can be found with different wording, i.e. Perse School OTC being a pre 1940/50s Metal badge and Perse School CCF post 50's and in Anodised!

In short:
OTCs - Universities (Over 18s)
CCFs - Public Schools and Colleges (13-18 yr olds)
ACF (Army Cadet Force) (13-18 yr olds) - Towns and Cities and under the TA organisation, not normally affiliated to an Educational establishment. Majority wear the Cap Badge of a Regular unit and do not have their own badge (there are a few exceptions).

Where ages are shown there are the permanent staff (Teachers/Instructors etc who of course and in some cases would be a lot older)

Hope this helps?

Andy

Thanks Andy,

So some public schools were OTC then.

Attached is a quite rare Tonbridge School OTC badge in A/A - I assume it later evolved into Tonbridge School CCF.

May have to send you a new (again) ACF and CCF section...

By the way - you should have links to all the others - let me know if there are any problems.

Regards

Chris

[Peter Brydon]

Attached are pictures of the Liverpool College badges showing the sequence as worn:

OTC- metal
CCF- metal
CCF- anodised

The design is similar to one dating back to when the school was know as the Liverpool Collegiate Institute ( see drawing )

P.B.

[Alan O]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Thanks Andy,

So some public schools were OTC then.

Attached is a quite rare Tonbridge School OTC badge in A/A - I assume it later evolved into Tonbridge School CCF.

May have to send you a new (again) ACF and CCF section...

By the way - you should have links to all the others - let me know if there are any problems.

Regards

Chris

Chris,

This should be right as the School OTCs became CCFs in 1948. However as Schools are a law unto themselves they seem to have been reluctant to lose the oTC title.

Alan

[2747andy]

Originally Posted by hagwalther

Thanks Andy,

So some public schools were OTC then.

Attached is a quite rare Tonbridge School OTC badge in A/A - I assume it later evolved into Tonbridge School CCF.

May have to send you a new (again) ACF and CCF section...

By the way - you should have links to all the others - let me know if there are any problems.

Regards

Chris

Chris,
Got the links, just need to find the time to go through it!

As Alan said the CCFs had/have rules of their own in some cases! A nightmare to sort through! I've attached a small selection of my Anodised CCF badges, you will see the Tonbridge with "CCF" (yours must be very early?). Also a King's Crown Exeter Sch CCF..

Andy

[grey_green_acorn]

Here is Epsom College CCF in gold anodised. Not shown in K&K.

[Paddy]

Chris

I've attached pics of the 2 Tonbridge badges I have, 1 is OTC and the other is CCF. I have attached a picture of the back of the OTC badge to show that the flat lugs have been repositioned from E-W to N-S but the remains of the old lugs and base of new lugs appear to still have their gold anodising (just like yours). Rear of CCF badge for comparison.

Paddy

[49lassiepen]

All O.T.C/C.C.F and anodised shown for Royal Sussex Regiment under wiltshire and part general collection in albums

[badjez]

Chris,

I'm just about to load pictures of my aa cadet badges onto an album.

Stephen.

PS- I have not added badges made of 'gilt alloy' which look like anodised but aren't (Bloxham School, Bancrofts School, Merchant Taylors School, Oundle School, Stowe School or Perse School).

[hagwalther]

Thanks Guys,

Lots to go through but it seems that school OTC did evolve into CCF which explains a lot of things my end.

It seems I have two tasks to do:

a) Ensure that I am using the correct CCF/OTC title for the A/A badge used. I think I have a few A/A badges titled OTC when they were in effect manufactured when the unit was CCF. In effect, I have erroneously carried through the old OTC name to a CCF era badge.

b) As CCF units did not go through the same procurement process as other badges information (especially official) on them is quite scarce. I have good listings from Keith Rawlings and also from other collections but will also check the forum albums etc. for others. I contacted all schools that I believed may have used such a badge which I did not already have physical evidence of but response was very, very disappointing and a really a no-go avenue of research.

Interestingly I have identified 35 ACF/CCF/OTC badges which seem to have been used by the Army Cadets or School Cadet units. These have been identified via Rawlings work (and his verbal confirmation of an A/A example) and by actual examples in collections.

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by badjez

Chris,

I'm just about to load pictures of my aa cadet badges onto an album.

Stephen.

PS- I have not added badges made of 'gilt alloy' which look like anodised but aren't (Bloxham School, Bancrofts School, Merchant Taylors School, Oundle School, Stowe School or Perse School).

Thanks Badjez,

Would it be possible for you to post a couple of these 'gilt alloy' badges for me to see - I think a quite a few 'anodised' examples in CCF actually are not but would like to see such examples.

Regards

Chris

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by 49lassiepen

All O.T.C/C.C.F and anodised shown for Royal Sussex Regiment under wiltshire and part general collection in albums

Hi 49lassiepen,

Stupid here could not find any cadet anodised - can you elaborate please.

Regards

Chris

[49lassiepen]

HI Re Royal Sussex board TOP right 2nd in ARDINGLY C.C.F LUGS E&W BI/m,
HIRSTPIERPOINT COLLEGE C.C.F slider GAUNT BIRMINGHAM, all gold Center 3rd down CHRISTS HOSPITAL COLLEGE LUGS E&W all gold -only 3 anodised the others are various metals

[49lassiepen]

HI in main collection MARLBOROUGH COLLEGE C.C.F wore all gold badge lugs E&W