Essex Yeomanry uniform (Badjez request)

[Expat Yeoman]

Two part titles worn by 3/1st EY:

1) Officer's bronzed title (16.5mm height)

2) OR brass title. A non-matched pair based on the different lug styles. Based on Longdog's description the Y sounds a match to his EIY titles, and my suspicion is they were cannibalised to make these when the "I" was dropped. They are the same height.

[Longdog]

Michael,

Thank you for posting the photos and sharing the titles you have.

E / I Y Title:
Very interested to see this example as the lug type and letter dimensions are different to the pattern on the uniform.

E Y Titles worn by the 3/1st EY:
Didn't know there were 2 different patterns worn by officer / OR so thank you again for sharing some more information.

Given the timeline relating to period of use, may I ask why you think they adopted this pattern of title as opposed to wearing T Y Essex title ?

All the best,

Pat

[Longdog]

Michael / Stephen,

Please find photo of T / Y / Essex brass title.
Reference Westlake, period of use c.1908 to 1919.

I'd like to ask a couple of questions please:
Relating to comments earlier in the thread, what date period do you think this title was actually worn from post IY, then before adoption of the Y / Essex pattern ?

Also, are you aware if a white metal title was issued / worn ?

Your thoughts and comments would be most welcome.

Hope this is of interest.

Pat

[badjez]

T/Y/ESSEX- See IWM collection INS 1616. This is the sample pattern card created to the 1915 pattern (prior to this badges had been produced by the TFA so were not 'sealed'). It was marked as obsolete 08.06.22. (as were most of these patterns).
It notes the "Y to be omitted for overseas" ("for overseas" crossed through). I suspect this should be 'T' to be omitted. Although I have yet to see a sealed pattern for E/ESSEX, a similar one for Y/BEDFORD was sealed 12.16. and obsolete in 1922.
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The Essex Review No238, published 4.51. records that in 1908 Service Dress 'introduced with turn down collars with badges, and straps with T / E Y on them'.
'About 1912 T/Y/ESSEX replaced the neater lettering on the straps'
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Bob Smith Archive photo shows title E/IY being worn post 1908. The three letters being distinctly separate. [It may be that the photo examined for the Essex Review article was indistinct leading to an error].
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It seems obvious that the new T/Y/ESSEX titles would not have been immediately available when the TF was formed in 1908. 1912 would seem a reasonable date for introduction as this year also saw the introduction of may other new badges for other Essex TFA administered units.
It would not surprise me if old titles were resurrected in 1914 when there was a shortage of authorised items. This was certainly the case with Northants Yeomanry, who were pictured wearing NIY titles in Italy in 1918!
= = =
Until I read Michael's thread I had not been aware of Officers wearing titles. This does seem an anomaly so I would appreciate seeing any photos etc. that support this.
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White metal titles may well exist, although I've not seen them in Keith Hook's comprehensive collection. I do have WM T/Y/HERTS so the theory of them existing in Essex is feasible. I'd suggest the hackney phrase of 'Walking Out Dress or Bandsmen'...

Stephen.

[Expat Yeoman]

The T/Y/ESSEX title, Westlake has it as 1908 but as Stephen has said I also think it unlikely to have been introduced that early and more likely c.1912 as Rickword also mentioned in the Essex Review magazine. (And Stephen I agree the sample card surely meant to refer to removal of the T not the Y for the revised title).

The T/EY title that Rickword mentioned, I've never seen any evidence of use and Keith Hook is of the opinion that it was not worn.

Stephen, the two part titles are an anomaly and only worn by 3/1st and not the other line units. I don't have photos but my examples came from Keith, who obtained them from Colonel Whitmore's personal effects.

Pat, like Stephen I've never seen a white metal version of the T/Y/ESSEX title, and if Keith H doesn't have one I think it unlikely that there is one. But can't conclusively rule it out!

[Longdog]

Stephen / Michael,

Thank you both for providing information and sharing your thoughts once again, very much appreciated.

Stephen,
As you rightly state, that are many examples of insignia worn out of official period of use.
I find it very interesting to see examples, presumably unofficial, of insignia worn well before documented period of use. There are a fair few examples relating to Yeomanry titles alone.

Just to state a couple of points:
Yeomanry Regiments that wore the T Y pattern title number about 45.
Of these, I know that a white metal version title exists for 12. Hence why I am always interested to learn of others that may have existed.

Additionally, there are a number of Regiments where the T Y titles that have been "modified" with the T being converted into a 1 to differentiate from 2/1st, etc.
I have not seen an example of a 1 / Y / Essex title to date.
Would be interested to hear otherwise!

Y / Essex titles:
Please find attached photos of Y / Essex brass titles.
Reference Westlake, period of use, from c.1919.

The Y / title appears to exist in four different formats:
1. Seriph style Y / title: T cut off / removed.
2. Seriph style Y / title: standard construction.
3. Straight style Y title: standard construction.
4. Straight style Y / title: 2 part title.

Have talked with others about whether there is any significance with the different Y styles: simply different manufacturer or was there a timeline period difference.
Also, were the titles that had the T removed used initially or perhaps later when old stocks were modified.

I'd like to ask a couple of questions please:
What date period do you think this title was actually worn from and to ?

Do you think there is a timeline difference in the seriph / straight Y period of use ?

Your thoughts and comments would be most welcome once again.

Hope this is of interest.

Pat

[badjez]

T/Y/ESSEX that have been converted to a '1' do exist, at least in one does in Keith Hook's collection.
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I don't think anything can be read into slight variations in manufacture. Dies change as they wear out, or from maker to maker. I think some Y/ESSEX titles are no more than an ESSEX Regt title with a separate Y attached. Whether or not a Y had serif again depended upon the supplier I think, but have no evidence either way.
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I also wonder about being too specific about certain titles or badges being worn only by 2nd or 3rd Line units. I always thought that a man joining the 3rd Line would get whatever badge was available in the UK, invariably this would be that of the latest design. Upon mobilisation for service overseas I am not sure a Draft would be re-badged with another design of title. When they arrived with their new unit in France, or wherever, it might be that then they would be given replacement items from unit stocks- these may be of an obsolescent style, or locally procured. I suspect that we only attribute certain badges only because we have evidence of certain units on certain dates. We don't have sufficient photographic evidence to make a comparative study across all 1st, 2nd & 3rd Line units on a single date.
= = =

Stephen.

[Longdog]

Stephen,

Thank you once again for sharing your thoughts on my questions.
Also for posting the photo that shows an example of the 1 / Y / Essex title.

Totally agree with you regarding the probable random reasons why different types / patterns of insignia were issued and worn.
I think the initial reasoning behind the "T" conversion by an individual would have been linked to unit pride.
Reference attached photo: Whomever wore this example was most adept at conversion!

In this day and age when information is widely available online:
The Essex Yeomanry Association website being relevant to this topic is most informative.
However, it is always good to hear what other collectors like yourself and Michael, with subject knowledge, have to say as others like myself will learn much. Thank you.

I notice that you mention Keith Hook's collection on several occasions. The name is vaguely familiar. Is this a well known Essex Yeomanry collection ?

I would like to post photos of a selection of EY title examples next if that would be of interest.

Pat

[Longdog]

Sorry, forgot to attach photo!

Pat

[badjez]

Pat,

Keith Hook is a well respected collector, who started amassing his badges whilst serving in the RN way before I was ever thought of. He is a Vice President of the Military Historical Society, and until recently his son was curator of the Essex Regt/ Essex Yeomanry museum at Chelmsford.
Keith has a very large collection, and an amazing memory storing lots of relevant information.

Stephen.

[Peter Brydon]

If I can add, I have known Keith for some considerable time and used to correspond with him in the pre E mail days. He has always been generous in sharing his extensive knowledge.

It was badges from his collection that were used to illustrate the Yeomanry booklets by Barlow and Smith.

P.B.

[Longdog]

Stephen , Peter,

Thanks for your posts.
Keith sounds a grand chap with a long time interest and a wealth of knowledge acquired along the way, Great stuff.
Always nice to hear when folks are happy to share experience and respective collections that benefit others with an interest.

All the best,

Pat

[Longdog]

Stephen / Michael,

Thought I would show the EY titles I have (apologies for poor photo).
Reference Westlake, period of use from c.1951.

Westlake also states that at least 8 different patterns / sizes of this title exist.

Obviously, the 2 part example Michael posted earlier in the thread is another pattern and worn in a different period.
Would be interested to know what other different patterns / examples exist.
Your thoughts and comments would be most welcome.

Hope this is of interest.

Pat

[badjez]

I vaguely remember Keith saying that he had 17 different versions. As yet I've not gone looking for anything other than size variations, not differing die stampings.

Stephen.

[Longdog]

Stephen,

Why am I not surprised to hear that!
If anyone could show photos of different versions, it would be appreciated.

I have really enjoyed reading what yourself and Michael have posted and shared on this thread, thank you.
Considering it was only by accident after I posted a photo of an E IY title attached to a uniform!

Speaking of which, after reading the comment about the Essex Yeomanry Museum:
Yourself, Michael and maybe others enjoyed seeing the uniform.
Is this something a museum would maybe like to have and show ?
Will need to find an E IY title first as it wouldn't seem right to remove one though!

Have a great weekend.

Pat