London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers) metal STs

[Drew]

Hello Everyone,

I would be very grateful for any help you may be able to give with regard to two questions I have about the London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers).

1) Am I correct in thinking that at one time or another they wore titles as in the first picture I have attached?

2) Did they ever wear the T London title in the second picture?

Many thanks in advance,

Chris

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Drew

Hello Everyone,

I would be very grateful for any help you may be able to give with regard to two questions I have about the London Regiment (Royal Fusiliers).

1) Am I correct in thinking that at one time or another they wore titles as in the first picture I have attached?

2) Did they ever wear the T London title in the second picture?

Many thanks in advance,

Chris

Evening Chris,

1) Yes, these were worn by the Royal Fusiliers.

2) I'm afraid I cannot provide you with a definitive answer as to the Royal Fusiliers regarding the T/LONDON shoulder title, but would like to contribute the following to the discussion...

As has been posted once or twice in the past here on the forum, Westlake tells us in 'Collecting Metal Shoulder titles':

'T/CITY OF LONDON (1563, 1564) and T/LONDON (1565) are listed in the 1920 Priced Vocabulary of Clothing and Necessaries, for wear by City and County battalions respectively. These titles are often seen in photographs being worn on the jackets. They are more frequently seen however, being worn on the greatcoat...'

Whether or not we should infer from this that these titles can be dated pre or post-1920, is unclear.

In addition, on p.134, he makes reference to the change in the 'numbered' London TF shoulder titles (for example: T/5/CITY OF LONDON, T/6/CITY OF LONDON, T/10/COUNTY OF LONDON etc.) regarding the lower tiers being superseded by 'LONDON', during the Great War period. Whether we can conclude from this that the 'T/LONDON' and 'T/CITY OF LONDON' titles also date from this period is in my opinion, also unclear.

That said, I think it is safe to say that 'T/CITY OF LONDON' was worn by those units designated as City of London battalions (battalions 1 to 8), and 'T/LONDON' by those designated as County of London battalions (battalions 9 to 28).

Here are some examples of both shoulder titles in situ - note that the City of London Rifleman wears the 'T/CITY OF LONDON', and that the men of the 13th and 19th battalions wear the 'T/LONDON', in keeping with Westlake's assertion.

6th City of London Battalion
T-CITY 1b.jpgT-CITY 1a.jpg

13th County of London Battalion
T-Lon 1b.jpgT-Lon 1a.jpg

19th County of London Battalion
T-Lon 2b.jpgT-Lon 2a.jpg

Based on this, the evidence appears to suggest that the Royal Fusiliers would not have worn the 'T/LONDON' title, given that Bns. 1 to 4, were City battalions. Not conclusive, of course, but perhaps a start to the debate.

JT

[Drew]

JT,

Thank you so much for that. You have given me a lot to think about with this. It is really impressive the way you have worked through the evidence to come up with this working hypothesis. I will go away and have a think about this and come back here.

I am very grateful to you for your input.

Cheers,

Chris

[wardog]

'Thanks' JT.

[Drew]

I should probably say that the reason for my raising this question, was because of looking at the attached photograph of a London Regiment soldier with T/London title and circular patch.

I thought the most likely candidate for the circular patch was either the 1st, 2nd or 4th London Regiment (yellow, green and red circles respectively). The T/London title thus confused me.

Another possibility was the 2/20th London Regiment after they transferred to the 185th Brigade, 62nd (West Riding) Division in 1918. However, I still thought it was worth double checking. JTs excellent evidence would seem to imply that this gentleman is indeed 2/20th Battalion.

Cheers,

Chris

*Also attached pg. 222 of The Second Twentieth, By Capt. W. R. Elliott M.C.

[Jelly Terror]

Originally Posted by Drew

I should probably say that the reason for my raising this question, was because of looking at the attached photograph of a London Regiment soldier with T/London title and circular patch.

I thought the most likely candidate for the circular patch was either the 1st, 2nd or 4th London Regiment (yellow, green and red circles respectively). The T/London title thus confused me.

Another possibility was the 20th London Regiment after they transferred to the 185th Brigade, 62nd (West Riding) Division in 1918. However, I still thought it was worth double checking. JTs excellent evidence would seem to imply that this gentleman is indeed 20th Battalion.

Cheers,

Chris

*Also attached pg. 222 of The Second Twentieth, By Capt. W. R. Elliott M.C.

Chris,

Your deduction certainly seems to make sense.

Thanks for posting your images. Good to see those.

JT