Gunnery branch - specialized rate badges

[RCN]

By the time of WWII, the Gunnery branch, due to the degree of weapons specialization found it necessary to split off the standard Gunlayers rate badges into more specific specialist catagories.

The first two rates appeared in 1939 & were the Quarters & Layer ratings. The Director layer ratings also specialized, they became Control ratings & their letter was a C below the gun(s).

The single gun (Seaman Gunner) design was to designate the 3rd class rating, & continued in use with the addition of the rating's specialist letter designation below.

As the war progressed & more advances were made in gunnery, & what guns were shooting at, necessitated the addition of the Anti Aircraft rate,
(letter A); & with the introduction of radar, necessitated the appearance of the Radar specialist rate (letter R).

These rate badges were also in use up to the changeover to specific RCN rates in '49 -'50

Illustrated below are two examples of the 3rd class Gunnery specialist rates - Layer rate & Quarters rate.

[RCN]

For the 2nd class & 1st class gunnery ratings, the rate badge was represented by the old Layer rating (crossed guns) badge with the addition of the specialist letter below the guns.

One star above designated 2nd class Gunnery, &

One star above & one star below designated 1st class Gunnery.

examples of 2nd & 1st class Gunnery rates are shown below....

[RCN]

Each of the specialist letter designations also had their own Gunners Mate's,
their rate badges being identical to the Gunner's Mate badge, with the addition of the specialist letter below the guns.

Examples are shown below in blue embroidery for wear on the white tunics.
& also examples in red embroidery.

[RCN]

Illustrated below is the full set of the Gunnery Layer rate badges, from Gunnery Layer 3rd class to Gunner's Mate.

They are shown in red, blue & yellow embroidery.

[RCN]

Prior to leaving this section on the pre 1950 Gunnery rate badges, I would like to comment upon the types of gold badges seen ocassionally.

Gold badges were worn on a rating's best (number one) uniform tunic. The tunic he would have worn for ceremonial or special ocassions ashore or on board ship.

All the pre war & early wartime gold badges were tailored in gold wire, (sometimes called gold bullion), usually they were hand tailored badges & are quite beautifully crafted. The Layer rate example on the left is of this type.

Gold badges were expensive to make & buy for wartime, so in 1944 economy 'gold' badges started appearing. These badges were machine embroidered from yellow thread, similar to the red & blue embroidered badges. They were in use from '44 to approx '47. The Layer rate example on the right is of this type.

Bryan

[stonehouse boy]

Did the Royal Canadian Navy at one time use the same pattern Gunnery badges as the Royal Navy.
Some of my Gunnery badges to the Royal Navy and Royal Marines look the same to me as the ones posted by you.
John.

[RCN]

Yes John, from the inception of the RCN in 1910 up to 1950, the RCN rank & rate badges were identical to the RN badges.

The change to specifically Canadian rate badges occured in 1950. All RCN rate badges afte that year had the maple leaf above the branch design.

See my thread on 'Regulating branch' (about the 5th post down)for more detail on the changeover & why it took place.

Bryan

[stonehouse boy]

Hi Bryan,
Thank you for that information.
I have these in my collection as you will see the gun barrels face different ways, I can't find out when the change happened.
I hope someone on the forum might know.
John

[RCN]

The guns are reversed as they were worn on the lapels of the CPO tunics John, one being worn on the left lapel & the other being worn on the right lapel.
These rates are CPO Seaman Gunner (Control) & CPO SG (Quarters).

I will try to find & post a photo of a CPO wearing similar badges,

Bryan

[stonehouse boy]

Hi Bryan,
These badges are full size as worn on the sleeve I always thought collar badges were smaller.
Not the best picture but this Royal Marine is wearing his gunnery badge with the barrel facing left.
This picture was taken about the early 1920's I would have thought, this topic I should have put on the Royal Navy-Royal Marines part of the forum
but anybody talking gunnery badges gets my interest.
John

[RCN]

Thats a nice photo John. Marines wore their qualification badges on the left sleeve & near the cuff, unlike the Navy which wore their rate badges on the upper right sleeve. The gun barrel would face 'astern'.

I have matched CPO rate badges that are full size, its not unusual to see them in the large size especially in the pre war period. I have also seen them with some of the background material cut away so they will fit the lapels better. I cannot say for certain when the smaller badges came into effect, but I am thinking after WWII.

I'll try to post a couple of my photos also.

Bryan

[RCN]

Here is a photo of a Leading Seaman wearing the Seaman Gunner rate badge on his right arm.

Bryan

[RCN]

& here is a CPO wearing Seaman Torpedo rate badges, the RPPC is not all that clear so dont know if observer will be able to note that the torpedos are a matched set, each of the torpedos on the lapel face 'astern'

Bryan

[RCN]

A photo of a CPO Gunlayer.

Bryan

[stonehouse boy]

Hi Bryan,
I've seen Royal Marines wearing single barrel guns facing to the left and to the right.
The barrel to the right seems just before WW11, I always thought gunnery branch badges must have changed at some point .
And from that time they would always face right I never thought I might be buying collars.
The pictures I've seen of of collars they always looked small, I think I need to do some more research here.
Your mans picture was taken in Marlborough Street Devonport which is in the city of Plymouth, its right next door to the Naval Dockyard.
John