Victoria & St. George's Rifles busy

[Drew]

Hello,

I was just wondering if anyone could tell me whether this Victoria and St George's Rifles busby would have had another part to the plume? For example, another red attachment on top. Were there two parts to the plume?

Many thanks,

Chris

[leigh kitchen]

The plume should be black over red.

[Drew]

Thanks very much indeed for the confirmation. Thanks too for the wonderful photo. I believe KRRC ordinary ranks usually had black over red, but I have seen a postcard from the early days of the Queen Vics which appears to show an OR with red at the top. I wondered if this busby was a similar example and if the Queen Vics (or any of their forerunners), went against the norm.

Can I just ask, is your example Pre-1908 or after?

Many thanks,

Chris

[leigh kitchen]

It'll be pre-1908 as the St Georges & Victoria's Rifles became the Queen Victoria's Rifles, the 9th London's that year.
Then again, could it be that c1908 there was no hurry in changing the badge but the plume reversed colours?
It looks like some units used reversed or single coloured plumes to distinguish particular appointments eg COs Bugler, perhaps that was the case with the illustration showing red over black you refer to?
Edit to add that the one I have has a black badge boss, cords & top.

[Drew]

That's great. Thank you again.

If I can impose a bit further, does that mean something might not quite right with the auction site example I posted?

Chris

[leigh kitchen]

I can't make out the colour of the top in the image you've posted, but if it's green it doesn't tally with the black topped one I have.
I do have a cap with green cords, black plume & top but unfortunately no badge, boss, or unit markings.
It could well be that the cap & plume pairing that you show is original, but not to the St Georges & Victoria Rifles.

Another edit: it's pre-midday, far to early for me to string words together - apologies for reversing the name of the Victoria & St Georges Rifles in my posts.

[leigh kitchen]

And yet another amendment - I'm having a closer look at my Vic & St George cap, & its possible that its top is dark green like the one you show the link to, ather than black, its hard to tell, although I still veer towards black when comparing it to a green topped rifles cap I have.
The one you show has the same style Hobson's" label in the same location as my cap, not that there's any real significance to that.

[Drew]

It is green (see attached). It is very good of you to entertain my queries, thanks very much, I appreciate it. It is strange because it appears to have a Victoria & St. George's badge.

Don't worry about any mistakes. I am using an iphone and can't really see what I am writing. I am sure I have made loads of them.

Edit: For example, the title of this thread! Oh my goodness.

[leigh kitchen]

It's possible that my Vic & St George cap which does appear original, does have a green top.
To me it looks an aged black.
The one you show may well be OK.
So after all that, its a "definite maybe".

[Drew]

I think I read somewhere- though I cannot remember where- that it was difficult to get the dye to a rifle green colour, and that it often came up almost black. Mind you, perhaps that wasn't such a problem by the date we are looking at.

[Drew]

Ok. Many thanks indeed. In that case, I wonder why the plume is black at the bottom though.

Edit: Ah! Looking again at your example, perhaps it is merely that the one I posted is missing the red bit.

Edit #2: I have only just seen your point about the possibility that they reversed the colour of the plumes. Many thanks for that. It is definitely something worth looking into.

[Peter Brydon]

I dont know about the London Regiment and their predecessors but with Kings Liverpool Regiment, the 5th Bn wore an all black plume, the 6th Bn had a black over red plume and the 8th Irish Bn appear to have worn a green plume.

You have to take each battalion separately.

P.B.

[leigh kitchen]

The Isle of Wight Rifles also wore a black plume, oval black boss & black cords, but I don't know what colour the top was, green or black.
I get tied up in knots working out the colours of bosses, cords, tops, let alone the shape of bosses, types of boss badges & additional badges worn along with the boss badge.

[Drew]

Great photos, Peter. Many thanks. Thanks also for your thoughts about taking each one separately. Thank you both for your interesting examples.

I have been trying to note differences between battalions who had similar affiliations. For example, looking for uniform differences between the 6th, 9th, 11th, 12th and 21st battalions (to use the post-1908 designations), and also doing the same for those with RB links. Perhaps then it would be easier to interpret photographs or bits of uniform, on those occasions where other determining features, like cap badge, are missing. This is one reason for my interest in the plumes. The QVR certainly stand out with their regimental buttons (and also some other differences I can note). However, discerning differences between, for example, the 6th and the 12th, may be harder. They both had rifles buttons and the 12th Bn's history seems to say they were clothed 'as for the KRR'.

I had hoped differences in the colours of the plume might be another clue, and Peter's comments are very intersting here about battalion differences. Leigh's excellent example seems to show, that at least pre-1908, they followed the norm. However, it will be intereting to see what happened after this period.

I am probably digressing too much from the thread title, but just to say that I would like to build up a more solid idea, or picture, of what the different but similarly clothed battalions wore, and then post it on the forum.
Does anyone know where I might start looking for evidence? Would there be anything official at the National Archives or is my best bet regimental records and publications? It is probably just a matter of slowly building up evidence over time, but if there are any official records, I would be very interested.

Many thanks for your help with this.

Chris

[leigh kitchen]

These links may be of interest:

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...ss-uniform-id/

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/fo...dville-plates/