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  #46  
Old 13-05-17, 06:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GriffMJ View Post
Yes Mike ... see post #31 above. That mark (FIRMIN&SONS) is a later one than the FIRMIN. LONDON.
I was going to ask you or Mac .Did the bronze QRL come in at the start of the regiment ,or was it brought it after a period of time ?

Does it fit between Firmin London and FIRMIN then. I have plenty of badges with both on but only the QRL bz and a large RGBW with the "&sons" mark ?
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  #47  
Old 13-05-17, 08:08 AM
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Hi Mike

The "Motto" Firmin Makers Mark has a chronological system, as my AA motto collection is telling me this. The key indicator is the back image of the motto and the wear on the male stamp over time (each production run).

The FIRMIN&SONS mark, I believe, was the last 17th/21st Lancer "production run" before QRL, with the QRL having the "DOWLER. BIRMINGHAM" then the fat "FIRMIN" marks. I am only talking "Production run" periods here... the QRL could easily have worn AA mottos that had been made during the 17/21 life time.

I am finding that "some" productions of the AA also had a production of the "bronzed" motto with it..... as proven by the individual makers marks and the corresponding back image. The earliest "Bronze" has the MM of FIRMIN. LONDON...... I have not seen an earlier one than that yet..... the two earlier marks (by back image) being DOWLER BIRMINHAM (the first production by/for Firmin) and FIRMIN LONDON. So the first Firmin bronze date I would roughly guess as being late 1970s.

The FIRMIN. LONDON mark degraded into the FIRMIN. ONDON toward the end of its life.

Below are all the Firmin (Dowler Motto) AA, Bronze, chrome and Officers S/P that I have collected to date.... excluding the additional AA FIRMIN. LONDON I have just purchased. That one will fit in between #2 and #3 in the top right of the pic. There are a few more to collect..... but I am almost there now I think.

* I have added in the time line chart so you can get to grips with the "Dowler" connection.
** There is a true difference between the original Smith & Wright/Dowler/Shaw Munster Motto and the new production Dowler/Firmin Motto.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20170513_105637.jpg (86.4 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg HeritagechartMotto.jpg (43.8 KB, 11 views)
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 17-05-17 at 10:11 AM.
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  #48  
Old 15-05-17, 12:27 PM
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AA FIRMIN. LONDON (so far)

* Also one of them with its matching production "Bronzed".
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File Type: jpg FDL3a.jpg (89.6 KB, 14 views)
File Type: jpg FirminDotLondonBronze.jpg (108.7 KB, 3 views)
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 16-05-17 at 06:39 PM.
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  #49  
Old 18-05-17, 03:12 PM
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Hi All

I have only just noticed this.... I collected this motto a year or so ago and I have only just noticed that it is double makers marked. On the slider it is "FIRMIN. LONDON"..... but underneath on the back of the scroll it is marked "F&S".

This indicates that there is a hallmarked silver officers version ...very probably. The Officers run being the first off the die.

Gaunt did the same thing ..... a double marked first run AA after making the Officers silver in 1964.
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File Type: jpg 20170518_154520.jpg (74.8 KB, 10 views)
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  #50  
Old 18-05-17, 06:57 PM
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Griff,after reading your last ive relooked at mine.
My thin Firmin,above the slider towards the edge of the skull there appears to be an infil. Now,i have limited knowledge in the area of Mottos but it looks like its in the place where the hallmark usually is on a silver Motto. I will post an image shortly,if i can get a decent representation of what im talking about.
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File Type: jpg 20170518_205903-1.jpg (31.4 KB, 10 views)

Last edited by Mike H; 18-05-17 at 08:03 PM.
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  #51  
Old 18-05-17, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GriffMJ View Post
This indicates that there is a hallmarked silver officers version ...very probably. The Officers run being the first off the die.
There are various double maker marked A/A badges, and both these marks have been used by Firmin on their A/A badges, so your observations don't hold sway in my humble view. I believe you try to read too much into this.

Rgds, Thomas.
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  #52  
Old 18-05-17, 10:28 PM
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I have a LI double stamped Firmin London and Firmin on the bugle ,a fairly recent example. Also a Green Jackets Brigade with a diuble Gaunt London stamp on. Although the badge stamp is right under the slider .
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  #53  
Old 19-05-17, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by fougasse1940 View Post
There are various double maker marked A/A badges, and both these marks have been used by Firmin on their A/A badges, so your observations don't hold sway in my humble view. I believe you try to read too much into this.

Rgds, Thomas.
Thomas

I have attached one example of this..... I can show others.
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File Type: jpg 1964GauntSilverandAAxxComp.jpg (73.3 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg MottoGaunt1e.jpg (91.5 KB, 4 views)
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  #54  
Old 19-05-17, 07:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike H View Post
Griff,after reading your last ive relooked at mine.
My thin Firmin,above the slider towards the edge of the skull there appears to be an infil. Now,i have limited knowledge in the area of Mottos but it looks like its in the place where the hallmark usually is on a silver Motto. I will post an image shortly,if i can get a decent representation of what im talking about.
Hi Mike

That mark appears to be a slider placement mark..... I have a couple that cleary show these.
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  #55  
Old 19-05-17, 11:18 AM
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Thomas

Further to may last..

This is the "Old" Firmin die converted to the AA production during the 1950/60s. The new pattern 30056 S/P (Brass base then Nickel plated then silver plated) came from this.... then onto the AA production. This is only marked "FIRMIN LONDON" (1mm x 12mm) on the sliders of the ORs. This mark being carried over from the older white metal production.

I have only found one production(s) of the S/P (Patt No: 30056) and four for the AA in the Old Firmin Motto.

* Firmin produced an HMd silver in 1946... and this die was used to make the S/P & AA version (Having previously made the post War white metals and HMd Silver).
** I have also added another "Double mark" AA with period progenitor S/P example from Gaunt for the RMP.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg OldFirminSPAA1.jpg (103.3 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg OldFirminSPAA2.jpg (99.6 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg OldFirminSPHMd.jpg (89.0 KB, 5 views)
File Type: jpg PlodE2RbX.jpg (96.5 KB, 3 views)
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 03-07-17 at 08:02 AM.
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  #56  
Old 25-06-17, 06:46 PM
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A new Firmin mark on the AA motto "FIRMIN."

* Compared with a later (i think) FIRMIN. LONDON
Attached Images
File Type: jpg FirminDot.jpg (64.7 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg FirminDotCompare.jpg (56.4 KB, 1 views)
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 10-07-17 at 12:45 PM.
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  #57  
Old 03-07-17, 07:28 AM
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Welsh Guards AA "FIRMIN. LONDON"
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File Type: jpg WGFirmin.jpg (37.7 KB, 7 views)
File Type: jpg WGAA.jpg (45.7 KB, 10 views)
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Last edited by GriffMJ; 03-07-17 at 07:44 AM.
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