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  #16  
Old 22-01-18, 08:29 PM
sturgis sturgis is offline
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Originally Posted by fairlie63 View Post
5 AGRA (AA) had 30, 44 and 77 HAA Regts, 35, 72 and 74 LAA Regts until it was disbanded in 1958.

Also 150 AAFC Bty.
These are the post war allocated Regiments, BAOR.
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  #17  
Old 22-01-18, 08:50 PM
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54Bty 54Bty is offline
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Prior to Alamein an Artillery Group was formed of 7th, 64th and 69th Medium Regts RA. They later (1943) became 5th AGRA and the Regiments were, 57th, 58th, 121st Fld., 7th, 51st, 64th and 69th Med. On return to the UK prior to D Day the US 987th Fld Arty Bn joined the AGRA.

The HQ of 5th AGRA and the 64th are famous for having communications with, and guns in range of those stuck Arnhem.

Marc
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  #18  
Old 23-01-18, 08:09 AM
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fairlie63 fairlie63 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sturgis View Post
These are the post war allocated Regiments, BAOR.
Hi Sturgis,

Your point is?

5 AGRA (AA) was a post war formation, converted in 1950 from 5 AA Bde, which had been raised in 1940 (Fredericks, Lineage Book of British Land Forces, Vol 2, p965, p1048). Those units I listed all joined 5 AGRA (AA) in BAOR after 1950 (Watson and Rinaldi, The British Army in Germany, 2005, pp32, 39).

5 AGRA 1943-46 and 5 AA Bde/5 AGRA (AA) 1940-58 were two totally different formations.

According to Hodges and Taylor (1994, p113) the serials allocated to the units of 5 AGRA in Italy in 1943 as provided by Marc (54Bty) were:
HQ 5 AGRA 375
57 Fd Regt 335
58 Fd Regt 336
121 Fd Regt 340
7 Med Regt 387
51 Med Regt 388
64 Med Regt 389
69 Med Regt 391

On return to UK and allocation to 2 Army the serials 1191-1199 were apparently allocated. These signs are stated as having a white horizontal bar at the bottom of the plate below the serial number denoting them as Army Troops, and the formation sign of 5 AGRA is stated to be that of 2 Army.

5 AA Bde was a unit of ADGB, being part of 9 AA Div based in Gloucester and Hereford with 85 and 88 HAA, 47 LAA and 37 SL Regts under command in Feb 1941. This allocation probably changed from time to time, it was originally 5 SL Bde in April 1940 (Routledge, Anti-Aircraft Artillery 1914-55; Fredericks, Vol 2, p1048).

In June 1941 serial numbers were allocated to units of AA Comd in ADGB (WO Letter 57/Overseas/273 (SD 11) of 19 Jun 41, Appendix A) -
as the senior brigade in 9 AA Div in Feb 1941 the numbers allocated would have been 81 on RED background for HQ AA Bde, 55-58, 63, and 10-12, on RED background, in succession for the regiments of the brigade. The corners of the plates were to be painted khaki to present an elliptical background.

Now this may have changed over time, I'm afraid I don't have detailed ORBAT of AA Comd, and don't know where it may have been deployed later, or under whom. HQ 5 AA Bde was at Owestry in January 1946. In 1947 it was located in South Wales, Bristol and Kent, as a Regular Army formation, comprising 77 and 97 HAA Regts, 44 and 78 SL Regts. The latter two regts were converted to HAA a year later (Fredericks, Vol 2, p951, p958).

So, for the Second World War period -
1. the AGRA serials allocated in Italy were in the 300s;
2. the AGRA serials allocated in NW Europe for 21 AG were 173-194, plus 1190-1199. In addition a white formation distinguishing bar was painted on the plate in conjunction with the serial number for all non-divisional units (ACI 31/41, Vehicle Marking 1941; Hodges and Taylor, pp58, 72).
3. AA Comd serials were 1-100.

In 1947 the use of formation distinguishing bars was abolished and display of unit serial numbers was restricted to units deployed on operations (Regulations for the Equipment of the Army 1947, Pamphlet No 5, Marking of Equipment, Section 4, Marking of Vehicles). The new Territorial Army AA units were not re-established until April 1947.

There was a formation sign on your vehicle that Mike Jackson has dated to 1947-48. The second formation sign has been established as belonging to 5 AGRA(AA) during the post-WW2 period, and is not known to have been officially in use (or in use at all) prior to this post-WW2 period.

Finally, the serial number 164 has been established as being a spare number in the block of serials allocated to AGRA(AA)/AA Bdes/Corps Artillery during the late 1950s and early 1960s. As 1959 was the first time that numbers for AGRA appeared in print for general knowledge it is quite possible that it had been in use in BAOR beforehand. It might even have been 150 AAFC Bty, who would have used Matadors to tow the Radar AA No 4 Mk 6 used by their AAOR troops.

So, based on the information above, and the contributions by the other members to this thread, the balance of probability is that your Matador is marked for a unit of 5 AGRA(AA) in Germany during the 1950s.

Keith
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  #19  
Old 23-01-18, 04:17 PM
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Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
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Keith. Many thanks - that's excellent information. A snippet - the serial for HQ 5 AGRA - taken from an illustration in the 5 AGRA history published in Dannenburg, Germany I Nov 45.
5 AGRA.03.jpg5 AGRA.02.jpg5 AGRA.02.01.jpg
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  #20  
Old 23-01-18, 05:27 PM
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Thanks Mike. Hodges had 1190 as used by 5 AGRA Tps, I wasn't sure whether that meant the workshops, sigs, etc, that weren't allocated to individual regts. 1191 was HQ AGRA according to them (but it's early in the morning, I'll have another look tonight to make sure I haven't misread - the lowest number would appear correct for a formation HQ).
Keith

Last edited by fairlie63; 23-01-18 at 05:36 PM.
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  #21  
Old 25-01-18, 11:48 PM
Dave34 Dave34 is offline
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Default 5 AGRA

Keith, I agree with you, and am fairly certain that 164 was used by a regiment in 5 AGRA in the early 50s in Germany. This seems to be confirmed by the attached picture published in Soldier magazine in 1953. I believe that the British Army supplied support to the German people during severe floods of that year. 164 can be seen on the jeep. 5 AGRA included 35 LAA/SL Regt, probably the only regiment with searchlights.

Michael Mastrangelo published this list of 5 AGRA serial numbers in an article on BAOR (I think this was in Windscreen - the MVT magazine):
160 HQ 5 AGRA
161 30 HAA Regt
162 44 HAA Regt
163 77 HAA Regt
164 35 LAA/SL Regt
165 74 LAA Regt
The article included pictures of 30 HAA Regt vehicles but no others, so these numbers may be guesswork.

Finally, I can confirm that HQ 5 AGRA used serial 1190 in 1945 (and 1946). I attach part of a document from their war diary.

Dave
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Searchlight.jpg (58.3 KB, 15 views)
File Type: jpg HQ 5 AGRA.jpg (13.3 KB, 10 views)
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  #22  
Old 26-01-18, 05:16 AM
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Much appreciated, thanks Dave. PM'd you back.
Keith
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  #23  
Old 26-01-18, 06:15 AM
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Dave, Many thanks - excellent research. Next question - who designed the post-War 5 AGRA formation sign? And why the wheel symbol? Mike
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  #24  
Old 27-01-18, 04:40 PM
Dave34 Dave34 is offline
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Mike

In the aforementioned article, the author John Mastrangelo (not Michael as I wrote erroneously) said that the formation sign 'was said to depict mobility with AA Force'. This sounds feasible?! I guess that it was chosen by one of its original commanders. These were Brigadier GD Fanshawe from Nov-Dec 1950 in Bulford, followed by Brigadier RHL Wheeler who took the HQ to Germany in Jan 1951........

Dave
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  #25  
Old 27-01-18, 06:03 PM
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Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
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Originally Posted by 54Bty View Post
Prior to Alamein an Artillery Group was formed of 7th, 64th and 69th Medium Regts RA. They later (1943) became 5th AGRA and the Regiments were, 57th, 58th, 121st Fld., 7th, 51st, 64th and 69th Med. On return to the UK prior to D Day the US 987th Fld Arty Bn joined the AGRA.

The HQ of 5th AGRA and the 64th are famous for having communications with, and guns in range of those stuck Arnhem.

Marc
Hence the AB Forces formation sign on the No 1's right cuff. Mike
64 Med Regt RA_IWM.01.jpg
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  #26  
Old 27-01-18, 06:04 PM
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Mike Jackson Mike Jackson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave34 View Post
Mike

In the aforementioned article, the author John Mastrangelo (not Michael as I wrote erroneously) said that the formation sign 'was said to depict mobility with AA Force'. This sounds feasible?! I guess that it was chosen by one of its original commanders. These were Brigadier GD Fanshawe from Nov-Dec 1950 in Bulford, followed by Brigadier RHL Wheeler who took the HQ to Germany in Jan 1951........

Dave
Dave, Thanks - that very plausible. Mike
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  #27  
Old 27-01-18, 06:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave34 View Post
I guess that it was chosen by one of its original commanders. These were Brigadier GD Fanshawe from Nov-Dec 1950 in Bulford, followed by Brigadier RHL Wheeler who took the HQ to Germany in Jan 1951........

Dave
Could it have been him?

Marc
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  #28  
Old 27-01-18, 07:44 PM
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Nice one.....I like it!
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  #29  
Old 29-01-18, 09:59 PM
sturgis sturgis is offline
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Thanks all... I think that pulls all the information together, you have far more in depth knowledge of this stuff than I would ever be able to get at alone. Not that its disappointing, but it would have been nice to have found some of the vehicles early history but thats unlikely now.
Cheers all
Rich
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  #30  
Old 31-01-18, 05:18 AM
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Rich, do you just have the tailgate, or the whole vehicle? If you can locate the serial number painted on it (probably also on the tailgate), there are members on ww2talk.com who could probably give you an idea of what contract the vehicle was supplied under, when, and who built it.

If you are a vehicle restorer then you probably know more about it than I do but there are quite a few people with in-depth knowledge on vehicle markings on that website.

Cheers, Keith
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