Best Swordsman proficiency badge

[GTB]

I believe this is a turn of the century/WW1 Best Swordsman in Regiment proficiency badge.
GTB

[Postwarden]

That's what Edwards & Langley identify it as.

A nice rare service dress version.

Jon

[GTB]

Thanks for that, Jon. I was a bit confused whether it was Best in Regiment or Best in Squadron, but regardless, it is the item itself that is supreme.

GTB

[manchesters]

GTB,

It appears to be a crown sewn onto a pair of crossed swords, rather than a one piece badge.

Is that correct?

regards

[54Bty]

More likely to be a SSgts crown of a APTC PTI.

Marc

[grey_green_acorn]

I would suggest part of the badges of rank of a Grenadier Guards Colour Sergeant. Here is the current QC version.

Tim

[manchesters]

I would go along with that.

regards

[GTB]

Badge has no backing cloth and, as can be seen, is a period piece formed of two component parts.
Am I to understand that Best Swordsman badges come one-piece?

Would you have similar period examples of Best Swordsman and APTC PTI embroidered badges for comparison?

GTB

[manchesters]

GTB,

There is no bad feelings meant about your badge, it is a lovely badge, all period construction and sewing.

its just trying to ascertain exactly what it actually is.

I have one piece crown over swords badges and there were therefore produced in one piece.

this being two piece and with a large crown leans it towards a Guards Col. Sgt arm badge.

regards

[manchesters]

Hello,m

I have attached a photo of the Prize Badge.

regards

[GTB]

We forum members perforce need to rely on the goodwill of each other to identify and expand upon items presented on the Forum. Ultimately, this benefits all.

Case in point is my khaki embroidered Crown over Swords badge. Various potential contenders have been brought forward, but nothing as yet incontrovertible. So, while gratefully acknowledging all posts and encouraging exchange of information, until such incontrovertible proof is forthcoming I am happy to look upon my badge as what I initially believed it to be. And if it turns out not to be a Best Swordsman badge I will still be content with it. After all, it is a century-old (or thereabouts) survivor of the cloth insignia of the old British Army. My aim is to establish whether it falls under trade, qualification, rank or other, so that it can be placed where it belongs.

GTB

[atillathenunns]

Originally Posted by GTB

We forum members perforce need to rely on the goodwill of each other to identify and expand upon items presented on the Forum. Ultimately, this benefits all.

Case in point is my khaki embroidered Crown over Swords badge. Various potential contenders have been brought forward, but nothing as yet incontrovertible. So, while gratefully acknowledging all posts and encouraging exchange of information, until such incontrovertible proof is forthcoming I am happy to look upon my badge as what I initially believed it to be. And if it turns out not to be a Best Swordsman badge I will still be content with it. After all, it is a century-old (or thereabouts) survivor of the cloth insignia of the old British Army. My aim is to establish whether it falls under trade, qualification, rank or other, so that it can be placed where it belongs.

GTB

New Zealand military insignia was in most cases identical to British insignia.
Hand sewn worsted badges of a drab mixture were worn by New Zealand troops between 1912 and 1921.
The size of crown on the badge pictured in post #1 is too big to be a proficiency badge such as that worn by the best swordsman in a Regiment/Squadron, which would normally be a set of swords with a slightly smaller crown.
The badge pictured in post #1 is however proportionately correct for a Colour Sergeant/Staff Sergeant of the NZ Gymnastic Staff with the addition of a set of Sergeant stripes.

You might want to check out the "ABC of the Army" published by Gale & Polden in England during WW1, as they show a similar proportion of crown sizes in their pictures.

[grey_green_acorn]

Here is the page from "ABC of the Army"

Tim

[GTB]

Thanks atillathenunns and Tim for your feedback.

I had been trying to find a copy of "ABC of the Army" but Tim beat me to it; however I did drag out a copy of "The King's Army" and there is an interesting plate illustrating Skill At Arms and Qualification Badges. No.9 shows the only Crown of WO2 / CSM dimensions (as is the case with my badge) and superimposed upon a Steering(?) Wheel, described as 1st Prize Driver of Mechanised battery, R.A., Mechanised unit, R.E., and Royal Corps of Signals.

I think I can rule out Grenadier Guards Colour Sgt. as a contender: this badge would display the crown substantially distanced from the swords rather than superimposed upon them; the crown seems too large for this appointment; and the crossed swords utilised by the Guards have inverted embroidery colours i.e. khaki/olive blades and white basket guards, whereas my badge and Gymnastics/PTI swords have white blades and khaki basket guards.

I am now mulling over whether my badge could be a SNCO Gymnastics Staff, or similar. Would it also be possible for distinction between Best Swordsman O/R and Best Swordsman SNCO, or did these categories never exist? I once read something about SNCOs being embarrassed that lower ranks would be better qualified than them in swordsmanship.

GTB

[grumpy]

It is neither a swordsmanship skill badge nor a SNCO Fencing etc nor an SNCO PTI. Nor is it part of a Foot Guards Colour badge. I fear it is a made-up badge. At best, it might have filled a genuine function until the indent for the corrrect item came through the supply chain.

These functions were all covered by a single one-piece badge, worsted, vide

PVCN 1913 for example, Item 1899, price 4 1/2d.

The kosher badge was variously regimental best, and squadron best, depending on date.