36th Sikhs cap badge

[Khyber]

Hi all
There was a cap badge to the 36th Sikhs with Clanfield Militaria which I now see is sold.

I saw it yesterday when it was still available as but did not buy as I was not sure if its a 36th Sikhs badge. I also wrote to someone who is an authority/author on Indian badges and he tells me its not 36 Sikhs pre-1903. But there was a Bareilly Levy raised in in 1858 which became 36th Bengal Native Infantry in 1861 and was disbanded in 1882..but not sure if they had that badge.

Did someone here pick it up? And is there any way to confirm it is infact a 36 Sikhs Victorian badge. Would like to know as I agonised for a few hours on whether to buy the badge but then let it go..

[Phil2M]

Clanfield have identified an Essex Regt. badge as Middlesex Regt. so I wouldn't automatically accept all their titles, mix ups can happen.

[peter monahan]

The 36th Sikhs were not a Light Infantry or Rifles regiment, so, no, it is almost certainly not their badge. Certainly not what the regiment was wwearing 1903-1922, according to Ashok Nath's 'Sowars and Sepots'. Also doubtful that it could have been the Bareilly unit as, again, no obvious LI connection there and LI units were jealous enough of their disticntions that I doubt a non light unit would be permitted to wear the bugle horn.

[davidwyke]

Hi Chaps

I can offer some limited information on the units in question, but not the badge unfortunately.

The Bareilly Levy was raised in 1858 and was incorporated into the Bengal Army during the 1861 reorganisation. It was initially numbered as 40th and then later in 1861 as 36th Bengal NI.

In 1864 the title was amended to 36th (Bareilly) Regt, Bengal NI. The uniform was red with blue facings. Unfortunately I have no knowledge of the insignia worn by this regt but the uniform colour doesn't suggest a Rifle regt. This regiment was disbanded in 1882.

The "36" number remained vacant until 1887 when a new regt - the 36th (Sikh) Regt, Bengal Inf was raised. The uniform was still red but now with yellow facings. This is the regt which went on to become the 36th Sikhs in 1903.

The pre 1903 36th Sikh Regt was well documented photographically during their service in the North West Frontier campaign of 1897-1898. The headdress (turban) badge at this time was the same, or similar, to the post 1903 badge except for a QVC or Imperial crown. British officers wore a smaller badge on the forage cap.

David

PS....... I've also checked the buttons known to have been worn from 1861 onwards and none feature a bugle horn.

[peter monahan]

Very complete answer, David. Thank you. There is, I find, a too common tendency to suggest that any unknown British type badge 'must be Indian'. The IA had the same percentage LI and, outside the Frontier Force, Rifles as units as the british Army. That is, not many. Whatever this is it almost certainly is not Indian.

[davidwyke]

Originally Posted by peter monahan

Very complete answer, David. Thank you. There is, I find, a too common tendency to suggest that any unknown British type badge 'must be Indian'. The IA had the same percentage LI and, outside the Frontier Force, Rifles as units as the british Army. That is, not many. Whatever this is it almost certainly is not Indian.

Thanks Peter! Unfortunately, my answer isn't complete enough as we still don't know what the badge is!

Yes, I agree, there is certainly a tendency to say if it's cast then it must be Indian but it's by no means always the case.

David

[Wmr-RHB]

I guess the following will be stupid because I it is based only on what the badge shows and not on what it is made of or how it was made.

To me it looks very much like a British Rifle Volunteers Corps badge. And with the number 36 that would fit:
36th Middlesex RVC
36th Lancashire RVC
36th Cheshire RVC
36th Staffordshire RVC
36th Lanarkshire RVC
36th Kent RVC
36th Yorkshire West Riding RVC
And taking into account that some RVCs used their county number, 36 is for Monmouthshire.

[davidwyke]

Hi Henk

It's certainly a possibility and I did have the same thought myself. As you say, the pattern is similar to many RV badges. What put me off is the fact that it's brass and also the type of lugs. Having said that, it may have been blackened brass originally which was quite common for RV Corps and also some pre 1881 Militia Regts which had been designated as Rifles.

As regards 36th W Riding Yorks RVC - not much is known about their badges and insignia. Most of the items which are known are, unusually, bronze. However, there is a shako badge which has been attributed to them which is very similar to the badge in question. It's the same pattern but blackened, die stamped and with a slightly larger QVC and "thicker" "36" It's quite possible that this badge is actually from one of the other 36th RVC's as another, totally different pattern, badge numbered "36" has been attributed to the West Riding Corps; this one in bronze like the other known insignia.

David