named sliders

[Sonofacqms]

While I appreciate the effort some members put into research, I cannot recall the number of named sliders that I have encountered in the last fifty + years of collecting. Back in the fifties when I first started, no other ranks badges had named sliders.

Now I could have missed something, I do have a bus pass, but where have all these named slider badges suddenly come from? The answer: Rearch!

Yes, since "the net" has filled us with knowledge, so it has helped the fakers, can you imagine 1916, the government is short of everything, manpower, materials etc and yet badges seem to appear with named sliders, purportedly made during times of shortages etc. Yes, I know Lambournes made some and stamped them on the sliders, possibly hoping to get more business, but for the rest, where have they been hiding?

Answer: In files, hidden in records.

[Peter Brydon]

Sonofa,

Having started collecting seriously in the 1970`s ( having had a false start so to speak by collecting anything with a military connection at least 10 years before then), I have to say that your thread is thought provoking and does at the very least raise some interesting questions .

P.B.

P.S. I have my application form for my bus pass but have not yet got round to filling it in.

[Sonofacqms]

PB, bus passes are great, However, one cannot alter the records at Kew, they are there for all to see, but when the orders were placed by HM Government, did they state that the supplier must stamp their name on the vertical shank (slider), I wonder . . !

[matti467]

I for one am becoming quite suspicious of named sliders. They appeared as a rarity 20yrs ago when I started collecting but 'dealers' now use them as a sign of 'authenticity' rather than chance.
Matti

[1stTankie]

Hi sonofacqms

Many thanks and congratulations on raising a subject which I have feared to raise in case I stood accused of heresy. Like you, proud possessor of my bus pass, I looked at my sliders and finding nothing so exotic as Firmins, Gaunt etc began to doubt the wisdom of a hobby which seemed ruled by the authenticity of that piece of the badge which secured it to the person rather than the portrayal of the regiment on the proper side.

I have no doubt that reproductions will continue but in fifty years time who will be left to tell the difference?

Enjoy what you have and believe to be right.

Best wishes

Gordon

[James G]

Gents,

The difference between the 1970's and now is the Web. When I collected in the 70's I was restricted to a few local badge sellers with limited stock. Now I have access to half the sellers in the world and many many more collectors.
It is not just in our hobby. Britains toy soldier collectors who bought what they thought were very rare or unique sets 20 years ago often bemoan the web because more of those rare sets are in existance than they thought and consequently their investment hasn't increased as much as expected.

James

[tonyb]

Below is a poor quality upload of a photograph taken in 1979, it shows my collection of, as I thought cap badges of the British Army.

I now know at least one to be collar and one to be an arm badge.
Of all badges 3 are makers marked .

1. South Lancs has Indian makers mark bazaar made.

2. Army Catering Corps has Buttons LTD

3. RASC was OSD with bronzing polished away and blades missing marked JR
GAUNT

These badges I believe are all genuine, however I no longer possess S.Lancs, ACC or collar and arm badge.

I wonder today if these ordinary badge were offered for sale on Ebay how many would be makers marked.

By the way do you like my mums sheep skin rug?
Tonyb

[hagwalther]

Hi Guys,

From an anodised aluminium view point only.

The badges original specifications from the early 1950's stated that the badges needed to be marked with a makers name or trade mark. This requirement was still current as at 2009. The specification is at badge level not slider level and a while some lugged badges are marked (often quite hidden away in the reverse die folds) many are not. Some badges are also marked to slider and body but I have not seen a badge with an unmarked slider and marked body.

Therefore, the time to worry is when a badge has a slider which is NOT marked although it is conceivable that this marking procedure was missed. Note that some unmarked badges do reconcile exactly with their marked and genuine counterparts.

Many 'exotic' (read expensive) badges have unmarked sliders which makes me think there was a good reason behind this probably that the manufacturing company did not want to own up to making them...

Regards

Chris

[Sonofacqms]

A very good point Chris about A/A being marked somwhere, I will have to go through mine at some time and check them out, then look up where and when I bought them, should be interesting.

[2747andy]

"I have not got a Bus Pass........ What's a bus anyway?"

A fair point about Marked Sliders, but they are not as common on non-anodised badges as one would expect. I would say that less than .005% of my collection have a maker marked slider, hence the reason for posting them when they appear (Norfolk Yeo - Yesterday).. Genuine marks are still fairly easy to tell from the abundance of fake marks on repro badges.. The Makers Mark section here on the Forum is a great reference, I just wish a lot more members would use it:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/mak...ks/sliders.htm

Andy

[KLR]

I agree with most of what has been said above. There are suspiciously too many marked sliders around today. I have to admiot that I did not know a lot about them in my first collecting phase (in the 1960s / early 70s) but since I began my second collecting phase after a 30 year gap I have learnt a lot - much though this forum. (My collection of infantry badges [on my album] was a bit like Tony's - it had 1 territorial, 2 officer's and a few with the wrong fixings etc - now mostly replaced).

With regard to 'official records' I have not come across anything at Kew about makers needing to mark their products - ask Stephen / Badjez if he has either !
I'm interested though that Chris / Haghwalther has - regarding AA badges !
I have looked up a few makers records - Gaunt, Jennens, Bent & Parker but there doesn't seem to be any information on that subject there either - frustratingly ! I know there are other maker's records out there but I am having difficulty in gaining access to them for study !

[hagwalther]

Originally Posted by KLR

I'm interested though that Chris / Haghwalther has - regarding AA badges

Hi KLR,

I've got a few 'odds and ends' on A/A badges but still need more to complete. re: specifications - I have some specification info for A/A badges from the 1950's.

Regards

chris

[kingsman]

A comment, having worn the cap badge to a couple of regiments during the period '57 to '66 I never saw a makers mark on any cap badge issued to me, ( and there were quite a few) until I was issued with my first a/a badge to the Lancastrian Brigade.

[41st]

Whilst I only have a few OR version cap badges that are marked (without checking, I'd guess less than 6 or 7 out of 70/80 to Welsh units), these tend to be on patterns that I regard to be Kosher and not on those that I would easily recognise as modern copies.
That is not to say that original unmarked badges have been subject to later unauthorised marking of course.
Only a thought, but most marked badges to Welsh units that I see are easliy identifiable as modern copies when you know what to look for.
41st

[Alan O]

In my limited experience named badges are:

1. Outright fakes - JRGaunt.London, WD, etc.
2. Most post war badges and 95% of a/a. There are generally 2 sorts of blank slidered a/a. Some Firmin flat backed ones are blank and the reverse stamped blank ones mentioned elsewhere made by ?(Gaunt BHam) for collectors.
3. Small firms such as FE Woodward, Lambournes, and so on who were often not badge makers but diversified in wartime.
4. Some Gaunt and Firmin Yeomanry and Cavalry badges in WW2.
5. Private purchase badges.

The vast majority of issued ORs badges were not marked before 1947 or so.