Rifle Brigade intermediate size badge Possible Break through

[Charlie 585]

I hope the following might be of interest to fellow Rifle Brigade enthusiasts.

It concerns a much discussed and generally dismissed badge that is known to most who have ever collected or had an interest of the headdress badges of the Regiment.

The badge in case being the ‘intermediate size’ Guelphic crown Rifle brigade badge. ‘Intermediate,’ in that it is smaller than the well-known Rifle Brigade Glengarry badge KK588 (55mmH) worn from 1873 and larger than the Guelphic crown FSC badge KK703 (35mmH) worn from 1895.

The reason that the badge is dismissed as a fantasy is that as well as there being no confirmed photographic evidence of it being worn that there is also no confirmed sealed pattern information for it. It is believed that it is a poor man’s copy of the officer’s silver pagri badge, made for the collector’s market at some point way back when and much copied since, a belief that I had more or less come to accept myself.

As for the photographs, this is understandable as Rifle Brigade images from this time, being the late Victorian period, showing badged headdress other than KK703 to my knowledge are non-existent.

With regard to the sealed pattern information there is a discrepancy that I picked up on several years ago that has always to my mind left an element of hope that I might one day be able to make a positive connection to it and the supposed fantasy badge.

I had run these thoughts past members Peter Seaman and also Keith Blakeman who were both well versed and experienced RB collectors who I regarded at the time as the last word on the subject but they too having made enquiries were none the wiser and Keith was fairly dismissive of the badge, though like me and others he could not explain the gap in the numbering sequence of the Sealed pattern information, information that was kindly supplied by member KLR, Julian, who deserves a public ‘thank you’ for sharing the info with me some years ago now.

Many may be aware of the countless examples of the badge available that seem to bear out the negative view of the badge due to their lack of quality with regard to the strike and their general appearance and construction, in fact many are described when sold as copies which is correct.

That said though, every now and then an example of the badge turns up which appears to be superior to those generally offered for sale, I have had several examples myself of various quality and age and only two of those have left me with the opinion that they might be original items, one of which I regretfully parted with before I was encouraged by the positive opinion of Andy Plewa who also shared a nice looking example in his possession with me back when we were both members.

Having sold the large majority of my RB collection in recent times I was inclined to keep hold of my example of this badge rather than offer a possible dud for sale, I am pleased now that I kept it, though I will leave the definitive answer to the opinion of the membership rather than attempt to enforce my own opinion on anyone.

In response to a request of a copy of an image posted in a recent thread by member Roy I was able to view a high resolution scan that he very kindly sent me. I was hoping with the aid of this scan to confirm the Battalion as the 3rd Bn RB which I was able to do. In addition to this I was intrigued as to exactly which badge was being worn on the Field Service cap of one (possibly two) of the senior NCOs in the image which led to me investigate further.
It had been a while since I had broached this subject and also the subject of the black horn type buttons that appear on the uniforms. I had my suspicions that it wasn’t the usual kk703 FSC badge but that it might have been a WM or even silver example of the KK588 Glengarry badge.

Having carried out the measurements I was convinced that it wasn’t actually either of these badges which led me to believe that it could in my estimation possibly be the intermediate size Guelphic crown badge.

I made enquiries to member Crybin (Roger) who kindly set me straight on the possible sizes of the buttons in the image which we agreed was most likely to be approximately 19mm, or the medium size button of the period, this enabled me to scale up and thus measure the badge worn on this FSC in the image which accepting a small margin for error puts the badge at 40-45mm in height. Should the buttons though have been the larger 22mm type the badge scales up to 45-50mm which margin for error considered still leaves in my opinion only one badge that it can realistically be from the three possible candidates, this being the intermediate size badge.

With regard to the sealed pattern info I am now inclined to believe that the badge is the missing link in the sequence which runs from SP 4021(1894) to SP 4021B (1902) with SP 2325A in between dated 13th September1898.

Could it be possible that SP 2325A refers to the badge in question, which having been rejected by the Regiment for general acceptance as sealed pattern 4021A (1898) was taken into use by the 3rd Bn in India for a relatively short time between its sealing in 1898 and the Bn leaving the country in 1904 when they may have adopted the badge that we know as KK704, (as per KK703 with a King’s Crown).

I know of no other badge that could be applied to the sealed pattern 2325A from 1898 and as to its use by a single battalion on overseas service, this is not without precedent as it is recorded that the Sgts of the 4th Bn wore Bronzed pouch belt plates whilst serving in India, as well as officers wearing Bronzed collars for a short period on overseas service in the early part of the 20th century.

I would be interested to hear the views of any who care to comment on the probability of this being the case in the hope of confirming once and for all that this badge, copies aside, is actually more than a fantasy item.

Is this: No K&K reference Sealed Pattern 2325A (4091A?), 13th September1898. Cap badge, size 37mmW x 45mmH. WM (loops). c1898 - c1904

Link to Roy's original thread: http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ad.php?t=54690

Ry

[Roy]

Hello Ry,

A fascinating investigation and I will look forward to hearing what other members have to say on the subject.

I was happy to provide the photograph and hope it has been of use.

I was intrigued by your 'button/badge' comparison for size, so decided to take a look myself and try a different approach (see two pics attached).

I took the measurement of the rifles magazine (I have a few) and they were understandably all consistant at 82mm (at point marked). I then tried to extrapolate the size of one of the cap badges from this. As you can see my measurement came out to 34mm. However due to the cap badge being on the slant and also set back a little from the rifle, I suspect the badge is just a little bigger, so if correct would perhaps put it at the smaller of your size i.e. 40-45 mm.

Either way, it's another look at this to aid in determining size.

Cheerio,

Roy.

[Charlie 585]

Thanks Roy,

The badge that you measured though seems to be smaller than the one in the image that I posted which is the most likely candidate for being the intermediate size badge.

Take a look and see what you think by comparing it to the badge that you measured, also bear in mind the spacing on the cap.

I know it confuses the issue but it appears that the NCOs are possibly wearing different size badges, this may be explained by the fact that not all of them were necessarily members of the 3rd Bn, it was not unknown for ringers to be brought in for shooting competitions, men being on strength of a Bn for a short time for such purposes, naughty but true and reading between the lines of the chronicles there were times when averages were down and reputations needed to be rescued, it was a very elitist time and game.

By the way Roy, a belated but sincere public 'thank you' to you for the use of the image in this thread.

Kind regards

Ry

[MarkMcM]

gentlemen,

Congratulations on a fine bit of photographic forensics!

[Charlie 585]

Originally Posted by MarkMcM

gentlemen,

Congratulations on a fine bit of photographic forensics!

Thanks Mark,

The jury is most definitely still out on this one though and I hope it is not just wishful thinking on my part. I won't be parting with that badge just yet anyway.

I still feel that there is hope, especially given that stray sealed pattern, it is too early to be the four honour KC cap badge (shown below) which also has no confirmed sealed pattern number to my knowledge, seen here in WM and unmarked silver.

Regards

Ry

[Charlie 585]

To return to the measurements, bearing in mind that this is not an exact science and using the magazine that Roy kindly measured and the badge on the FSC from the image shown together below I have carried out further measurements.
Reading it as accurately as I can to, 82mm for the magazine and 43mm for the badge, which gives a margin of error that is far closer to the size of the intermediate badge than the usual FSC badge.

My intermediate badge comes in at 37mm x 45mm


Ry