21 SAS insignia

[johanwiegman]

Friends,

On request, I have turned a reply to another post in a separate thread.

Please find attached some pictures of the insignia configurations worn by 21 SAS from 1947 until battledress was phased out, sometime during the early seventies (in the TA at least, much earlier in the regular army).

What you can see is:

1) First insignia worn: a metal Mars & Minerva beret badge on a maroon beret, '21st S.A.S. (Artists)' shoulder titles on both shoulders, SAS wings and rectangular Winged Dagger arm badge on the right arm, worn from 1947 - 1954.

2) A change of shoulder titles to 'Special Air Service (Artists)' in 1954. I believe the pattern was sealed in March 1953 (the 'Special Air Service' title for 22 SAS was sealed in 1954. The shoulder titles have roughly the same dimensions).

3) A change of the Winged Dagger badge to the maroon beret and a new cloth Mars & Minerva badge to the right arm in May 1956. Many Winged Dagger arm badges were cut into shield shape and sewn onto the beret; various shapes can be observed, some very neat some more irregular.

4) Some time late 1956 the shoulder title changed to 'Special Air Service', the '(Artists)' bit was cut off. Here again, you can see differences in how the title was modified. Some were cut down very carefully, like the title illustrated, some were a bit mutiliated, so to say. Often, small remains of the ( ) can be seen as little pale blue dots.

In 21 SAS the sand coloured beret was introduced late 1957 - early 1958. The 'Special Air Service' shoulder title and M&M badge were worn until battledress was phased out, sometime during the early seventies.

I would be interested to learn when the Mars & Minerva arm badge was phased out. Was that on phasing out of battledress or earlier?

Who can tell me?

Cheers,

Johan

[johanwiegman]

Friends,

See early (1968) sand colour beret worn by a member of 21.

You can see the beret badge has a rather crude shape, cut from the original arm badge and moved to maroon beret, then
to a sand beret.

Cheers,

Johan

[johanwiegman]

Friends,

See example of insignia configuration of a 21 battledress.

This is the 4th configuration, with a cut-down shoulder title, in this case with little pale blue dots remaining of the brackets of "Artists". Cutting off the "(Artists)" bit of the shoulder title was a bit of a delicate job.

Note the M&M badge is worn facing backwards, a consequence of turning the beret badge into an arm badge and wearing it on the right sleeve...

I would be interested to know when the M&M badge was phased out. Together with battledress or earlier, possibly to align with the other SAS Regiments?

Cheers,

Johan

[irish]

Very nice Johan, a helpful study on this topic, thanks for taking the time to photograph and post this.

Best
Jack

[BADGERMAN]

back in the 70's we
were still issued battledress trousers
for use in barracks

[HamandJam]

Johan

Very impresseive and perfect know-how.
I believe the first official refefence to the re-introduction of the tan beret, is 12th October 1956 when the war offoce dress committee approved to re-adopt the tan beret for all members of the sas regiment. The war office confirms this in a letter dated 2nd nov 1956 to HQ SAS regiment and stating that a proto type tan beret will be forwarded in due course to the colonel commandant for agreement.

Will try to locate this letter.

Cheers,
JB

[REMEVMBEA1]

There seems to be some confusion about the introduction of Number 2 dress. I was posted to 42 Field Regiment RA LAD in 1960 and No2s had already been issued to the regiment. Initially it was worn with a khaki peaked cap in the same material as the uniform but this was later replaced by the No 1 dress hat.

[Jack8]

Originally Posted by johanwiegman

Friends,

See example of insignia configuration of a 21 battledress.

This is the 4th configuration, with a cut-down shoulder title, in this case with little pale blue dots remaining of the brackets of "Artists". Cutting off the "(Artists)" bit of the shoulder title was a bit of a delicate job.

Note the M&M badge is worn facing backwards, a consequence of turning the beret badge into an arm badge and wearing it on the right sleeve...

I would be interested to know when the M&M badge was phased out. Together with battledress or earlier, possibly to align with the other SAS Regiments?

Cheers,

Johan

Hi Johan,

Is the wing in the photograph of the cut down shoulder title the same pattern as the wing usually described as late WW2 pattern, or are there subtle differences?

Thanks,
Jack

[johanwiegman]

Hi Jack,

The wing on my BD is the 1944 pattern wing. It is a bit deformed due to wear. This pattern was worn for some time after WW2, first by 21 SAS and then in Malaya, by British, New Zealand and Rhodesian squadrons. I guess the 1944 wings were used until stocks ran out.

Large numbers were produced in WW2 for the SAS Brigade, but I believe the pattern was also manufactured in smaller numbers after WW2. Of course, the post war SAS was always much smaller than the WW2 SAS Brigade.

I believe the padding material during WW2 was a length of rope (austerity measure) and some thicker felt padding was used after WW2.

Most of the 1944 pattern wings I have seen were padded with rope, which makes sense. I have a 1944 wing with press studs also, probably from the Malayan period.

Cheers,

Johan

[johanwiegman]

Friends,

See the original 1944 pattern wings and a post war copy dating from the early fifties.

Notice the differences!

The 1944 pattern has thin, often double rigging lines and thin double top wing lines. The 50-ies copy has much thicker single rigging lines and top wing lines.

Also, the shape of the wing is slightly different, as are the colours. The 50-ies copy is a bit more upswept and has a very bright shade of dark blue, while the 1944 colours are a bit more subdued, so to say. The embroidery on the 1950 version is also thicker as is the stitching between the feathers.

The 50-ies wing is much rarer than the 1944 pattern, but not uncommon. It has very distinctive features, so keep your eyes open for one!

Cheers,

Johan

[Mike_2817]

Originally Posted by johanwiegman

Was that on phasing out of battledress or earlier?

This is a fairly universal anser really

Battle Dress (No5 Dress as was) had two purposes, and was replaced in differant ways.

As a field Uniform it started to be replaced as a Temperate Climite Uniform (BAOR & UK) by Combat Dress 1960 Pattern (No8 Dress) or in the Para's & SF by the OG Trousers (Part of No9 Dress) with Para Smock (which as an over smock was classed as Protective Clothing i.e. No12 Dress) of differing pattons! From as the date surgests 1960ish

As a Walking Out & Dress Uniform it was replaced by No2 Uniform from 1962 onwards.

Now I know some TA units lingered on into the late 1960's but not much Battle Dress was issued after 1970

[ASR142]

Originally Posted by Mike_2817

This is a fairly universal anser really

Battle Dress (No5 Dress as was) had two purposes, and was replaced in differant ways.

As a field Uniform it started to be replaced as a Temperate Climite Uniform (BAOR & UK) by Combat Dress 1960 Pattern (No8 Dress) or in the Para's & SF by the OG Trousers (Part of No9 Dress) with Para Smock (which as an over smock was classed as Protective Clothing i.e. No12 Dress) of differing pattons! From as the date surgests 1960ish

As a Walking Out & Dress Uniform it was replaced by No2 Uniform from 1962 onwards.

Now I know some TA units lingered on into the late 1960's but not much Battle Dress was issued after 1970

hi Guys
one of the least know uniforms arfter the 49 pattern uniform is the combat sateen 1952 pattern a mix of the us style combat uniform and the 49 patern uniform issued from 1953 ( just court the tail end of the korian war ) The combat unifom consited of a cap with a peak ( for runner to the crap hat ) trousers and jacket you still wore putties or gaters with the set it was issued to front line units 1st see items no's 53386 ( cap ) 56327 trousers on my web site http://www.brittonatwar.co.uk the cold weather parker that was issued during this period was a part of this combat set .steve

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Jahan,
This is a very interesting post, with regards to the photographs, it appears that someone has "butchered" three berets, was this someone you?
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by johanwiegman

Friends,

On request, I have turned a reply to another post in a separate thread.

Please find attached some pictures of the insignia configurations worn by 21 SAS from 1947 until battledress was phased out, sometime during the early seventies (in the TA at least, much earlier in the regular army).

What you can see is:

1) First insignia worn: a metal Mars & Minerva beret badge on a maroon beret, '21st S.A.S. (Artists)' shoulder titles on both shoulders, SAS wings and rectangular Winged Dagger arm badge on the right arm, worn from 1947 - 1954.

2) A change of shoulder titles to 'Special Air Service (Artists)' in 1954. I believe the pattern was sealed in March 1953 (the 'Special Air Service' title for 22 SAS was sealed in 1954. The shoulder titles have roughly the same dimensions).

3) A change of the Winged Dagger badge to the maroon beret and a new cloth Mars & Minerva badge to the right arm in May 1956. Many Winged Dagger arm badges were cut into shield shape and sewn onto the beret; various shapes can be observed, some very neat some more irregular.

4) Some time late 1956 the shoulder title changed to 'Special Air Service', the '(Artists)' bit was cut off. Here again, you can see differences in how the title was modified. Some were cut down very carefully, like the title illustrated, some were a bit mutiliated, so to say. Often, small remains of the ( ) can be seen as little pale blue dots.

In 21 SAS the sand coloured beret was introduced late 1957 - early 1958. The 'Special Air Service' shoulder title and M&M badge were worn until battledress was phased out, sometime during the early seventies.

I would be interested to learn when the Mars & Minerva arm badge was phased out. Was that on phasing out of battledress or earlier?

Who can tell me?

Cheers,

Johan

[johanwiegman]

Originally Posted by Frank Kelley

Hello Jahan,
This is a very interesting post, with regards to the photographs, it appears that someone has "butchered" three berets, was this someone you?
Regards Frank

Hi Frank,

Yes, I plead insanity, but it was a fairly new beret and I cut out patches (with leather rim) to display the beret badges...

Cheers,

Johan

[Frank Kelley]

Hello Johan,
Glad to hear that they had no age to them!
Regards Frank

Originally Posted by johanwiegman

Hi Frank,

Yes, I plead insanity, but it was a fairly new beret and I cut out patches (with leather rim) to display the beret badges...

Cheers,

Johan