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#31
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Quote:
Andy
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Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#32
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Okay, so into the 1960's, what did the Grenadier's do regarding their badge?
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#33
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Not sure what you mean Frank, they stopped using it along with their fellow regiments. If you mean what form did it take, they used their older device of the Garter strap encircling the Sovereign's cypher, which as a badge for 1st Foot Guards predates the grenade fired proper.
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#34
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Brilliant Andy, and yet more pictorial evidence. If you look at the size of the badge on the cartouche and compare it with the size of badge used on the original, Foot Guards pattern, peaked forage cap of the 1830s-40s, that I posted in the other thread, you will see that they are identical. To put things in perspective, the line regiments of 1799, had only a simple number badge on their cartouche, usually within a crowned circle, all in the candlestick brass of that era. They had only one undress cap (unlike the Guards two), which also bore only a simple brass number. Thus the Foot Guards alone have devices as undress cap badges that predate all others and can truly be considered the origin of the badges that are worn today.
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#35
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I was simply wondering if they continued to wear their last "valise" badge actually into the 1960's?
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#36
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The 1st Foot Guards knapsack with painted badge, 1815. In 1808 knapsacks were ordered to be painted black & to bear regimental numbers, the Foot Guards bearing regimental badges. The Foot Guards cartouche badges are described as of stamped brass, but the photo of the 1st Foot Guards one is of a cast badge. The cartouche badges worn by the three regiments appear to me to be significantly larger than the CG elongated star badge that started off this thread. I like the quotes attributed to ex-servicemen in response to Lady Elizabeth Butlers questions while researching "The Roll Call", her painting of the Grenadiers after battle during the Crimean War. "One rather alcoholic Chelsea Pensioner, asked what letters should be shown on the Guards haversacks, decided that they had been 'B.O.' for Board of Ordnance; then changed his mind in favour of 'W.D.' for War Department; then, on reflection, decided that it should after all be 'W.O.' for War Office." "The artist asked another ex-Crimean soldier if it was correct to show a grenade on the pouches. His unhelpful reply was, 'Well miss, the natural hinference would be that it was a grenade, but it was something like my 'and.' In the event she was lent an original badge by the War Office". The badge like an 'and sounds to me like the grenade badge but the only cartridge pouch badge visible in the painting appears to be the crowned garter & cypher. Last edited by leigh kitchen; 24-09-17 at 03:52 PM. |
#37
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Quote:
Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#38
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Hello Andy,
Yes, but, that was not and indeed, is not, a "valise" badge with the fitting for a strap, the reason, I asked the question, was simply because of the matter of the crown, I would be very surprised to see a Grenadier wearing a GviR "valise" badge in the 1960's. Kind regards Frank |
#39
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I accept that the badge that started this thread might not be a cartouche badge, but its larger size suggests to me that it may well be from one of the earlier forage caps, perhaps that in use before 1900, as they too were slightly larger. My main point and theory is that the same die was very likely used for a range of purposes. Your implied point about Lady Butler's painting and her sources is well made and amusing, but the images I posted in the latter part of the thread on the 'grenade fired proper' were taken from life by the artist concerned and not from years later. The peaked forage caps and associated badges then in use (1830-50) are especially interesting and the latter seemingly the same size as the cartouche badge. Thank you for the images, I am more convinced than ever. Last edited by Toby Purcell; 24-09-17 at 09:31 PM. |
#40
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#41
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You certainly do see individuals wearing plates and badges with the wrong crown, but, they tend to be officers, in the 1900's and late 1950's.
I suspect that in this particular case, they may well have been worn well into the mid to late 1950's, but, I would be very surprised if they had been worn beyond that, we need photographic evidence, which, sadly, I very much doubt will be forthcoming. |
#42
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Quote:
Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#43
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That last one is questionable/debatable. Given that it's before Waterloo I can only assume that it is depicting a man of the Grenadier, right flank company. To my knowledge there is no evidence that Grenadier or Light company soldiers had different cartouche pouch badges to the centre companies. Dress was different, but my understanding is that that was confined to a device added to the shako plate and a white plume. I will be interested to know what others can add.
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#44
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Quote:
Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please. |
#45
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So we can see that these devices from 1704 eventually made their way on to the Waterloo Shako over 100 years later.
Andy
__________________
Leave to carry on Sir please. |
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