What does “NZMGS” stand for??????

[sigcollector]

Hi All

I am new on here.

I thought, I would add some of my photographs.



The large badges worn by Godfrey Clive Miller , a Corporal of Divisional Signal Company. Taken at Zenith Studios Dunedin... 1913

Full Name
Godfrey Clive Miller
Forename(s)
Godfrey Clive
Surname
Miller
War
World War I, 1914-1918
Serial No.
4/624
First Known Rank
Sergeant
Next of Kin
T.T. Miller (father), 16 Constitution Street, Dunedin, New Zealand
Marital Status
Single
Enlistment Address
16 Constitution Street, Dunedin, New Zealand
Military District
Otago
Body on Embarkation
2nd Reinforcements
Embarkation Unit
Divisional Signallers
Embarkation Date
14 December 1914
Place of Embarkation
Wellington, New Zealand


The large New Zealand made badge set as worn in the Photograph above



Another Divisional Signaller with the Large cap badge



Now, Mounted Signal Troop

In the photographs I have they all are wearing the standard Gaunt or Stokes size, not the larger badges.

Wearing what appears to be NZMR titles with standard Gaunt , Stokes size or New Zealand made.




1914 Parmeston North , This appears to be Lt L T Herbert - Pahiatua wearing bronzed Signal corps Badges

I have another large group shot of Mounted signal troop in Parmeston North all with standard size badges...

Here is a Mounted Signal Trooper at camp in New Zealand 1915 with standard cap badge, flaming bombs , NZE titles and his Corporal with the same size cap badge, but Signal corps collars








This is from another small group shot with a sign they have made of Pahiatua Mounted Signal Troop


I have another large photograph of Pahiatua Mounted Signal Troop, and all are wearing the smaller badges.

JP

[Quicksilver]

The last two posts are excellent. Exceptional research on both. As regards the large Signal badge I can only say that the old Directorate of Signals, now defunct, stated that the large badge was for the Mounted Signal Troop. If photographic evidence shows otherwise then we have to question that, or were the Signal troops just being soldiers and going for something different! As an aside I have only ever seen about four of the large ones. I can only add a pix of W G Oakley MM of Div Sigs. Note the unusual crossed flags on the arm, but I can provide some pix of the College Rifles over about 10 years or more and some of the Auckland Engineer Vols Signals. Also a photo of Capt Falconer which I suspect is the same man from the Torpedo Corps. The collage Rifles oval pix that has three officers is dated 1910 while the other with one officer is dated 1909 and titled Maxim Gun Team Colleg Rifles Cycle and Signalling Corps.
Quicksilver

[atillathenunns]

Welcome to the discussion Jonathan.
I too am a bit sceptical regarding Dave Corbett’s views on the large NZSC badge.

Looking at the documents Cliff has supplied in posts #67 and #69, the badge designs submitted by the Wellington and Christchurch Signal Companies, I would think these were done prior to 1912 with the thought that they were supposed to be individual company badge designs.

The letter sent by the Quartermaster Generals office to the Christchurch District HQ, suggests General Godley however wanted a Universal Corps badge and had the Quartermaster Generals office forward the designs to Captain Dawson communicate with all Signal Corps and submit a design for approval.
The date of this letter suggests to me that Captain Dawson did not communicate to Christchurch that a universal NZ Signal Corps badge design had been requested.

I am assuming that both the Wellington and Christchurch Signal Companies designs would have been dismissed by Captain Dawson on the basis that they were to individualistic as apposed to being a corps badge.
Dawson was a Lawyer and had been the backbone of the Auckland College Rifles from the beginning. I find it hard to believe that he chose the College Rifles badge design on merit.

Keeping in mind that Signal companies were attached units, it would seem that from 1912 it was up to each district to source a supply of badges for their Signal companies.

It also appears that the original design instead of the ammended design that was requested by Godley was sent to each of the military districts as an example of the official badge.
Given that neither of the two badge designs submitted by Captain Dawson included any size reference, it well could be that the large NZSC badge is simply variaton and not just worn specifically by the Mounted Signals troops.

I’m thinking we need to take a close look at badges worn by the Otago signallers to find the answers.

[sigcollector]

Hi Brent and Cliff

I will add a close up of the titles worn by Pahiatua mounted Signal Troop.
This will show the NZMR title was worn.
As Lt L T Herbert's brother, being Lieutenant Colonel Alfred Henry Herbert of Wellington Mounted Rifles it could be to do do with this connection.

It would be interesting to see some more early shots of Otago signallers.

JP

[atillathenunns]

Well it seems that until more photographic evidence can be produced the Large NZ Signal Corps badge will have to remain a bit of a mystery for the moment. Hopefully Pukman and Devonkiwi might take up the challenge.

For the moment I have a couple of pictures to share.

This photograph shows Private Albert William Rankin, Service No. 49114, 28th Reinforcements Specialists Company, Signal Section. Embarkation Date: 14 July 1917. Killed in action 1st September 1918, Havrincourt, France.
Private Rankin appears to be wearing Bi-Metal (brass and silver) third pattern Specialists Company badges.


My collecton of NZMG related badges.


Silver marked third pattern Specialists Company badge.



When I get a bit of spare time I will post some more on NZMG badges worn during WW1.

[sigcollector]

Hi Brent

Here is 4/603 Clive Napier Cargill 2nd Reinforcements Otago District like Godfrey Clive Miller

He is clearly wearing the "Big Badge set" not to forget the collar badges!!!
As in the set I have shown above......
So this makes 2 now I hope to find more Photographs to confirm..



JP

[sigcollector]

Searching though more, I have found Wellington District Field Engineers Signals, also wore the large Badges set.

Here are 2 more both 2nd Reinforcements Wellington District.
Both wearing large badge sets

JP

[sigcollector]

I notice in the Corbett book," It states The first 53 mm badge was worn with 9-flame collar badges.

From my research and photographic evidence this is not the case.
I am not sure how Corbet came up with this conclusion?, and he has no mention of the matching collar badges that go with the 53 mm cap badge.

I am not sure if updated information is in new badge book?, as I do not have a copy, by G.Oldham.
As I pointed this information to him a few years ago.


JP

[Quicksilver]

Jonathan,
As you know from 1913 the NZ Signal Corps and NZP&TC were a part of the Engineers and the Engineer collars crept in possibly due to their availability and perhaps to show they were Engineers. Some of the later photos show them being worn, but I dont know if they are with the big or little badge.
With all the photo evidence it looks like the large badge for the NZ Signal Corps was used by both Div Sig Coy and Mtd Bde Sig Tp. I have yet to find my nominal role to see if the people mentioned were in fact in the Mt Bde Signal Troop but it looks as if this limited number of badges were worn by many! Perhaps the collective wisdom of the Directorate of Signals was wrong. I doubt if we are ever going to find out for sure, but I am very impressed with the huge number of photos of signal types. That is good.
Quicksilver

[sigcollector]

Hi Cliff

The 4 Wearing the large badges above are Divisional Signals, not Mounted Signal Troop.

4/624 Sgt Godfrey Clive Miller
Divisional Signals
Military District Otago
2nd Reinforcements

4/603 Sapper Clive Napier Cargill
Field Engineers
Military District Otago
2nd Reinforcements

4/600 Sergeant William Arthur Birkett
Military District Wellington
2nd Reinforcements
Field Engineers


4/617 Sapper Harold Leishman Langdon
Military District Wellington
2nd Reinforcements
Field Engineers


I have not found one photograph so far, of Mounted Signal Troop wearing the Large badge set, only Divisional Signals!.

The above photographs show Pahiatua Mounted Signal Troop wearing the smaller badges set.

As we no from Photographic evidence Auckland District Signals wore the College Rifles badges to they were used up.

I have only found one photograph of a Canterbury District Signals and the main body sapper is wearing the small set of badges.

The bombs were worn with the smaller cap badge as well as the small collars, as you say.


One thing I have been trying to point out is collar badges for the large set, have been denied a place in the badge books, and that they exist collectors think they are cap badges!!!.......

I went though all 82 names in your book swift and sure of Killed in action Died of wounds or disease, on the Cenotarph database plus all of the 4/ and 2nd reinforcements to find any photographs most do not have any photographs sadly. Maybe they are in the weekly news or some such list for a photograph........

JP

[Quicksilver]

I am impressed you checked all 82 names. There are few good photos of Signals in WW1 and that is why I am surprised at so many on this website. Brilliant. Thereare some in the weekly news but as usual difficult to see, plus some in Wires to Victory.

Are you suggesting that there are not only two sizes of cap badges for the NZSC but two sizes of collar badge?

FYI the Aden book is about to be published as Sultan Ghalib has preordered a sizeable amount.

Quicksilver

[sigcollector]

Hi Cliff

That is great news about the book ,look forward to seeing it in the print, I have had a few interested people asking when it will be for sale.

The early New Zealand made collar badges that go with the large cap badge are the same size as the Gaunt and Stokes cap badges.

The 42 mm collars for the large set are are the same crude make as the 53 mm cap badge .
With these badges, the stylised kings crown always stands out for me.

No small 32 mm New Zealand made collar badges exist of this cruder design.


Just to show the collar badge size comparison...

Left NEW ZEALAND MADE 42 mm COLLAR BADGES

4/641 Sapper Henry Wells
Military District Wellington
Divisional Signallers
2nd Reinforcements

Right GAUNT or STOKES MADE 32 mm COLLAR BADGES with 42 mm CAP BADGE GAUNT or STOKES.

25058 Angus John Campbell
Divisional Signallers
14th Reinforcements

[Quicksilver]

Most interesting. I will have to check my badges.

Quicksilver

[atillathenunns]

Jonathan, these new photos are great, but sadly only raise more questions than answers.

In answer to your question, apart form the prices Geoffs new catalogue contains the exact same information as his old catalogue in regards to the NZSC badges.
No information is given as to which cap badges were worn with the collar badges that are listed.
Interestingly the NZSC shoulder title listed in his old book (12/85 NZSC = NZ Staff Corps & NZ Signal Corps) is now listed in his new book as just (12/112 NZSC = NZ Staff Corps)
However Geoff does state on page 5 that he would be greatful to receive any details of corrections or additional information for incorporation in subsequent editions.

In regards to the large size NZSC hat badge, you’re photographic evidence certainly suggests that the 42mm NZSC cap badge was worn as collar badges when worn in conjuntion with the 53mm NZSC cap badge.
The fact that all your pictures are of men who sailed with the 2nd Reinforcements is what raises the most questions for me.
The obvious question is was this combination of 53mm NZSC cap badge and 42mm collar badges just worn by the 2nd Reinforcements?
To answer that question I believe that we will need to find a lot more photos, especially of the pre-war Divisional Signals and Mounted Signal Troop units in each of the four military districts. This way we can rule out various units as you have already done with the Pahiatua Mounted Signal Troop.

I have a list of all the Divisional Signals men who sailed with the Main body, and I am pretty sure I have a list of the Main body Mounted Signal Troop as well. These names would be worth checking againts the photos that are contained in the 1915 NZ Honour Roll as they would have been taken prior to the Main body embarking.

I haven’t as yet contacted Devonkiwi who has one of the finest photo collections which has helped solve a number of NZ badge mysteries in the past, but I have emailed Pukman today to see if he would be interested in searching through 1000s of photos.

Just out of interest heres a few photos of New Zealands most famous signaller Cyril Royston Guyton Bassett in the order that I believe they were taken in.

This one shows Cyril Bassett wearing small NZSC or Auckland College Rifles collar badges, unfortunately the shoulder title is too blurry to identify.


This one shows Cyril Bassett wearing standard flaming bomb collar badges and NZSC cap badge.


This one shows Cyril Bassett wearing standard flaming bomb collar badges and Victoria Cross.


This one again shows Cyril Bassett wearing his Victoria Cross but this time he is wearing small NZSC collar badges and what looks to me to be a large size NZSC cap badge???

[sigcollector]

Hi Brent

I picked up my First New Zealand made 42 mm large collar about 15 years ago
and now have five 5 in my collection, and have seen another 3.
Like the Large 53 mm cap badge, quite hard to find.

Yes, I have been hoping to find a photograph of main body man wearing the Large badges, it may turn up.
Or the men sent to Samoa......

All of the photographs you have shown of Cyril Basset are taken in the UK after receiving his Victoria Cross.
He is proudly wearing his, Auckland Collage Rifles badges or cap depending on the photograph, with "NEW ZEALAND" titles.

As I am still working on a large art work of Cyril Basset and his fellow Signallers , I have seen all of these before and better quality.
The Auckland college Rifles badges have a Victorian style crown that stands out and a very sharp pointy cross.

JP