[GriffMJ]

Hi Mike

The "Motto" Firmin Makers Mark has a chronological system, as my AA motto collection is telling me this. The key indicator is the back image of the motto and the wear on the male stamp over time (each production run).

The FIRMIN&SONS mark, I believe, was the last 17th/21st Lancer "production run" before QRL, with the QRL having the "DOWLER. BIRMINGHAM" then the fat "FIRMIN" marks. I am only talking "Production run" periods here... the QRL could easily have worn AA mottos that had been made during the 17/21 life time.

I am finding that "some" productions of the AA also had a production of the "bronzed" motto with it..... as proven by the individual makers marks and the corresponding back image. The earliest "Bronze" has the MM of FIRMIN. LONDON...... I have not seen an earlier one than that yet..... the two earlier marks (by back image) being DOWLER BIRMINHAM (the first production by/for Firmin) and FIRMIN LONDON. So the first Firmin bronze date I would roughly guess as being late 1970s.

The FIRMIN. LONDON mark degraded into the FIRMIN. ONDON toward the end of its life.

Below are all the Firmin (Dowler Motto) AA, Bronze, chrome and Officers S/P that I have collected to date.... excluding the additional AA FIRMIN. LONDON I have just purchased. That one will fit in between #2 and #3 in the top right of the pic. There are a few more to collect..... but I am almost there now I think.

* I have added in the time line chart so you can get to grips with the "Dowler" connection.
** There is a true difference between the original Smith & Wright/Dowler/Shaw Munster Motto and the new production Dowler/Firmin Motto.