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-   -   Scots Guards, Officer's or WO's Cap Stars? (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14176)

Paddy 06-01-11 09:41 PM

Scots Guards, Officer's or WO's Cap Stars?
 
6 Attachment(s)
Dear All

I have got 3 different Scots Guards Officer's/WO's cap stars. I have looked at K&K to see what the difference is between the Officer & WO star but all it says is that there is a slight difference in the shape, unfortunately it doesn't say what that difference is. Looking at the pictures of the 2 badges in K&K (905 & 906) the only slight difference I can see is that on the WO's star the small "beads", "balls" (or whatever they are called) at the end of each ray seem to be more pronounced. Does anyone have a fail safe way of distinguishing between a Officer and WO cap star and would anyone like to hazard guesses as to the three I have shown below.

Many thanks

Paddy

Deejayuu 06-01-11 10:39 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Hi Paddy,
nice badges. I cannot comment on whether your badges are officers or WO`s as i am no expert on these. What i can say is the badges look fairly modern ie post war. The diamond cut one i would say is very likely officers but again, you would need an expert to confirm. I do have some definate early officers badge for comparison though. I have a large silver gilt & enamel with J R Gaunt London stamped on the back. A really solid heavy item. I also have a much smaller SG&E pin backed badge. Not sure if this is an FSC item. The pin fitting is original. the badge is also hallmarked to the rear. The third i think is a collar in bronze. All are officers. Hope they are of use for comparison.
Kind regards, Dave

Tinto 07-01-11 01:14 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Hello Paddy and Dave,
Very nice looking badges you have displayed.
Here are my two badges which I believe are officer's but I stand to be corrected. Both are 52mm high. The Anderson Edinburgh and Glasgow one on the left looks silver, is not hallmarked.
Cheers, Tinto

Alex Rice 07-01-11 09:01 AM

Hi Tinto
Your two badges look like Royal Scots officers badges, not Scots Guards.

Dave (Deejayuu) - I think your bronze badge is an early OSD badge from around WWI, but I'd need to confirm that. I don't think they wore collars on service dress.

Cheers,
Alex

Jeff Mc William 07-01-11 09:27 AM

Hi All
Another "spanner in the works" from me I'm afraid :
According to Leask & McCance (and Bloomer), Officers of the Royal Scots wore an identical badge to the Officers of the Scots Guards from 1881 to 1931. How one would detect these (even if Hallmarked) is another problem. Regards Jeff
PS. I believe this has been discussed before on the forum but can't remember when.
PPS. Tinto, I guess that means that your stars date from post 1931.

Jeff Mc William 07-01-11 10:46 AM

Paddy :
Returning to your query tho', I don't think K&K are correct on this one. There must have been several slight variations from the many various strikings of this badge, and so I don't think there is a "fail safe" indication. Personally, I would say the "solid-struck" back (sometimes hallmarked) versions are more likely to be officers, as is Dave's badge. Regards Jeff

badjez 07-01-11 01:28 PM

Scots Guards
 
IMO the main difference would be quality of manufacture. Until the 1950's officers bought their own insignia etc, so I would expect theirs to be silver etc. WO's had their kit issued by Ordnance so would be of a lesser quality.

If a WO made a private purchase his only option would be to buy insignia of officers quality. The level of demand being so small that no manufacturer would produce items in the small qauntity just for WO.

Stephen.

Tinto 07-01-11 04:08 PM

Hi Alex, and All,
Of course, you are right! I must have been having a "senior moment". Sorry about that.
Regards, Tinto

cbuehler 07-01-11 07:42 PM

I think Stephen has it here. There is really no definitive answer to be had.
The Scots Guards did not wear collar badges on OSD uniforms, so we can be sure that all such collar badges are Royal Scots only.

CB

2747andy 07-01-11 08:39 PM

The first badge shown by Paddy at the start of this thread is one of the current LB&B badges issued to WOs. Rather nice and with a diamond effect, struck in frosted silvered metal. The other two look like the less spectacular White metal issued WOs badges. The way to tell older badges apart is that the Officers badges were silver or silver plate and had silver lugs whereas the WOs badges were Wm with copper lugs (this applies to 95% of older badges, some Offr SP badges came on copper lugs). As the badges are often well polished even the Wm badges appear almost like SP.

Andy

Paddy 07-01-11 11:00 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Dear All

Thank you all for your input and pictures. I think the general concensus is that there is no fail safe way to tell the difference but that it is easier to tell an officer's pre 1950 badge due to it being private purchase and obviously of higher quality than an issued WO badge. I also think like Jeff that K&K is wrong in saying that there were slight differences in design between WO & officer's badges and I think it is more than likely manufacturer's variation. Of the 3 badges I have shown - The first one I bought about 6 months and I have assumed it to be a WO's cap star. As Andy says it is LB&B and it is a very nice badge, by far the better looking of the 3. The 3rd badge was acquired over Christmas and was advertised as an officer's cap star, although a nice multi part construction badge (dismantled pic attached) it is nowhere near the quality and feel of the first badge, it feels and looks more like white metal than silver/SP. I received the 2nd badge this week and believe it or not it is the current issue officer's cap star (large, there is a current issue small version as well). It was in it's original packaging with the correct NSN etc (8455-99-130-3593) which iaw JSP 768 is Scot's Guards Officer's Cap Badge (Large), "Sterling silver gilt finish, Green enamel finish in centre". As you can tell from the picture it is nowhere near the quality of some of the earlier badges shown. Putting all 3 badges side by side, I can see no real difference in design but there is the obvious differences in quality of finish.

Many thanks again to all

Paddy

fougasse1940 07-01-11 11:11 PM

I'm going to openly flaunt my lack of SG badge knowledge by stating that the London Badge & Button Company made both unofficial and MoD contract badges between 1973 and 2000, when they were taken over by Toye Kenning & Spencer, but all OR's badges?
Shooting season is re-opened NOW!

Rgds,
fougasse1940.

Edward G Robinson 06-05-12 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeff Mc William (Post 95469)
Hi All
Another "spanner in the works" from me I'm afraid :
According to Leask & McCance (and Bloomer), Officers of the Royal Scots wore an identical badge to the Officers of the Scots Guards from 1881 to 1931. How one would detect these (even if Hallmarked) is another problem. Regards Jeff
PS. I believe this has been discussed before on the forum but can't remember when.
PPS. Tinto, I guess that means that your stars date from post 1931.

Thanks for this bit of information.
I have been trying to spot the difference between the Royal Scots Officers badge and the Scots Guards for years. No one has been able to tell me what the difference is . This could explain why the pictures in the various books I have consulted all look the same!
:)

ray smith 06-05-12 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tinto (Post 95456)
Hello Paddy and Dave,
Very nice looking badges you have displayed.
Here are my two badges which I believe are officer's but I stand to be corrected. Both are 52mm high. The Anderson Edinburgh and Glasgow one on the left looks silver, is not hallmarked.
Cheers, Tinto

Hi Tinto your two badges are Royal Scots,Although the Scots Guards & Royal Scots are similar The Royal Scots are more elongated top to bottom where as the Scots Guards are symmetrical.
As for Officers, All the ones i have seen have been Hall Marked and the lobes at the outside of the badge is more pronounced.
I hope this helps.
Regards
Ray Smith ex Scots Guards

badjez 07-05-12 02:21 PM

Scots Guards
 
Just a little factual info to add to your deliberations:


05.02.81. At the 249th Meeting of the Army Dress Committee, the Committee were informed that Officers of the Scots Guards had declined to accept the in-service cap and beret badge because it was not made of Sterling Silver. The Secretary was asked to write to the Regt asking them to reconsider the acceptability of the silver plated cap and beret badge.

This refers to the change in provision of Officer's badges, where these items were supplied to Officers by Ordnance upon repayment, instead of Officers purchasing their own from military tailors.

Stephen.


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