Pathfinder badge??
 

Hello. I'm new to the forum and I've been reading an old thread which has raised questions to a badge I possess. As I look at it, its a right facing brass eagle/albatross. It's 53mm wide x 13mm in height. It has 2 threaded studs on the back. Both 5mm in length. I was told its a cap badge but after reading the above mentioned thread, I'm not so sure. Could someone identify please? Many thanks. Stu. :-)

A picture would be better? A Cap Badge had the crown above

http://wing.chez-alice.fr/RAF/clothi...inder_Wing.jpg

Worn on the left hand pocket flap below Pilots Wings or Brevets & medal ribbons.

Only one I have seen close-up had 2 metal blades, and I have seen pictures with both a brooch fittings and screw posts.

How do I upload pics? Only using phone for now. The badge is nicely detailed. Not as shiny as the one you posted. The body and wing tops of the bird are hollowed at the back. The rest is solid. The tail feathers are 3 one way, 4 the other with a little gap in between. The threaded studs are about 8mm from each wing tip. Hope that helps.

I can't upload pics at the minute as im using my phone. My badge is nicely detailed and patinated. The main body and wing tops of the bird are hollowed at the back. The rest is solid. The tail feathers are 3 one way and 4 the other with a little gap between. The threaded studs are about 8mm from each wing tip. I hope this helps.

Hello stubomb, welcome to the Forum. New posts are moderated to make sure they are not a spammer. You should be okay now.

Example in wear

http://www.alliedflightgear.com/118_...-web-large.jpg

Although it could have been used as a pathfinder badge once removed from the uniform it reverts back to being half a cap badge if you don't also count the backing plate, nuts and washers that are probably missing as well the crown.

Andy,
I thought the Pathfinders badges were brooched, so easily distinguishable from the lower half of the side-hat badge. They were also removed before deploying on operations, so the screw post badges would have left holes.

Andy

Pictures show the side cap badge being worn with the backing plate to give a nice tight look on the the uniform so once removed it turns back to being half a badge, the other thing is would you really wear your best bird pulling uniform on ops or just wear an old one with no badge on, I'm not going to say I'm an expert on these badges but I wouldn't have thought they gave them out like smarties and you may have only been given the one pin back with it's certificate when reaching the required levels needed while being in a pathfinder squadron, I'm sure someone will know much more than me on these.

Hi,
Here's a link discussing Pathfinder badge fixings:

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...thfinder+Tinto

Cheers, Tinto

Tinto,
link takes you to the home page?


Andy

Hi Andy,
Sorry about that.
Have another go on the link.
Tinto

This is probably a better discussion http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...thfinder+Tinto

In a nutshell, the notion that Pathfinder badges with a broach fitting are post war is rubbish. The 'ISSUE' badges all had broach type fittings and were issued, as mentioned, with a certificate. Each Airman had more than one uniform (I think one battledress and two service dress tunics), and as such it was quite common for am Airman to beg, borrow, buy or steal additional badges for his uniforms.

The Pathfinder badge was just a brass right facing Eagle. Issue badges, as mentioned, had broach pin fittings, reputedly as they were supposed to be removed from the uniform before ops, although Ive never heard of an airman actually doing this.

The same badge with screw fitting was normally accompanied by a small crown and backing plate for the side cap, while those with thin bend over wires were made for the officers cap badge. In reality, all types were used as Pathfinder badges, it depended on the airman. If he had a spare cap badge he might well use it less the crown, and by modifying the back plate, or might even pull one off a peaked cap badge.

Additionally, badges with broach fittings were sold as that - broaches and sweetheart badges, sometimes in brass, often in gilt, at the lower end of the price scale.

The only true Pathfinder badge is one that has provenance from a veteran - regardless of the fixing.

It is merely an eagle, unless, it was actually worn by a member of the PFF as "his" particular badge, you would need his original PFF certificate, or perhaps his original 2520, his Forms 414 or 1767 and similar, in fact, anything whatsoever that confirms his operational service in 8 Group or it's predecessor's.
However, to be quite honest, unless a particular recipient actually told you it was his Pathfinder badge, then really, all it can ever be is simply, an eagle.

The obvious thing to do if all you want is a Pathfinder badge is to simply go and get an example of the PFF badge itself, rather than an just another eagle, they are very distinctive and had a very basic utilitarian reverse which should not be confused with something else, it's pin, the "tube" hinge and "flat" rolled catch are very distinct indeed.

Opinions welcomed on this variety ..;)
I have read the threads connected and have heard similar arguments over the years as to the exact style of a Pathfinder wing.
This example has a brooch style fitting with rollover catch and is stamped Firmin London.
Cheers
Gary

Hello guys, I would like to add to this discussion please.

As senior Curator of the PFF Collection RAF Wyton and have been for over 12 years now, the information I have accrued over this time has came from many PFF veterans as well as the records held within the AHB, the deputy director is part of our team.

Anyway I can only speak of this type of badge with regards to the PFF, SAS1 you said;

'In a nutshell, the notion that Pathfinder badges with a broach fitting are post war is rubbish. The 'ISSUE' badges all had broach type fittings and were issued, as mentioned, with a certificate. Each Airman had more than one uniform (I think one battledress and two service dress tunics), and as such it was quite common for am Airman to beg, borrow, buy or steal additional badges for his uniforms.'

With the information I have accrued I think you may be mistaken, sorry, AMOA 1244 - 1942 brought into service an, 'EAGLE, GILDING METAL', 'B' class store item, Sect Ref 22H/629. 3 badges per individual were a free issue. Initially worn on both flying jacket (BD) and service tunic, however withdrawn from wear on the flying jacket for obvious reasons though this did not stop some individuals wearing it!!! It was agreed that it could be worn on the BD post war.

The brooch style fitting is indeed post war as all PFF awarded badges were of, predominantly, the stud type fitting though blade fittings were also issued. Added to that, Forage Cap as well as Visor Cap badges were used as these were easy to come by.

The majority of badges I have on uniforms are the studded type. I have none with the brooch fitting. The brooch type badges I have were subsequently given to us from the families when these brave chaps sadly passed away.

I hope this makes sense and I'm always happy to answer any questions regards the PFF.

Warmest regards

Johnny

Johnny,

What do you mean by "stud" fittings.

Could you show us a photo of the rear of one please.

regards

That is indeed very interesting as I have four examples, which all came direct from three airmen who had served in 8 Group and all have the typical utilitarian pin as shown in my previous post, rather than a jeweller's brooch, I certainly have never considered them to be exclusively post war, although, such examples were issued after the war had ended.
Like Simon, I have never seen an example with "studs" you would expect to see Lugs/Blades/Wires/Posts etc.

Stud fitting would be the bolt on type.

Hi Guys,

Thank you for your replies. Frank, I would say 'Stud' and 'Post', in my mind anyway, would be the same as I think they would have a nut fitted to secure????

I think this is interesting as this info could mean that maybe some chaps had a pin / brooch fixing soldered on for ease of wear, it would make sense to me. The chaps I have known and still know, did not use the pin/brooch type of fixing till the PFF Association was formed! Sadly disbanded in 1992, though functions are still held at RAF Wyton to this day.

Yes, Magpie is indeed correct. Two studs with a brass plate with nuts. The blade type, as far as I remember don't have the brass plate. I have RAF, RAAF, RCAF, SAAF and USAAF examples.

I'm in the museum on Wednesday and although I have photos showing the Pilots Flying Badges, Half Wing Brevets, medal ribbon bar and PFF badge, I have never taken a photo of the PFF badge fixing. I will do that and update this post on Wed night / Thur.

Thanks once again.

Kind regards

Johnny

So are you suggesting the utilitarian pin badges were not actually originally manufactured as such and were modified by their wearers after the war, or are you suggesting they were issued after the war had ended?:confused:

The 2 badges I have are both made with a pin back and have not been modified later.

Hi Frank, not at all.

I know what I have been led to believe and what was issued to the airmen at the time, as told by the veterans and the Air Historical Branch at RAF Northolt. What I'm saying is that the brooch / pin type was more prevalent post war and more readily available from the PFF Association. I'm very sorry if I've not explained myself very well, a lot can be lost in translation with the written word.

Cheers for now

Johnny

Good afternoon Gents,

After a night hosting in the HC, I had a look at the fixings of the PFF badge attached to most of the uniforms I have on display, I looked at 30 in all, as I ran out of time. Didn't get chance to look at those hung away. This is to show the differences that were issued/borrowed/acquired etc etc! I've also had a chat with a few of my veteran friends and they are 100% sure they were issued with the stud/post type. However as this is just a snapshot it's not an answer for all.

18 have Stud / post type fitting as seen on 1752 and 1730.
7 have blade / tang type fittings as seen in pics 1712, 1763 and 1774(BD).
2 have the fixing as seen on 1767.
3 have utilitarian pins, however, I do know these were post war as told to me by the veterans that wore them, after fitting of new uniforms and didn't want to puncture the fabric of the pocket.

That you for your interesting comments and look forward to more conversations in the future.

Cheers for now Johnny

Hello Johnny,
My own thoughts have always been quite simply, an eagle, is just that and nothing more, unless, it was actually worn by a member of 8 Group, notwithstanding, the facts remain.
The eagle with the distinctive pin was the first to be originally made as a Pathfinder badge and was not, to the best of my knowledge, used as anything else, in that, whilst there certainly are PFF Sealed Patterns in existence of the eagle with both screw posts and the pin, the screw post eagle was already in existence, before the PFF was created, as were all those others with blades, lugs and wires, but, the eagle with the pin would almost certainly have been "the badge" in it's final form.
I knew a number of PFF members down the years and I remember being told that there were great many eagles of all types in use as their badge and I believe the pin was in use in 1945 just before the war had ended, the former is certainly born out with your photographs.
I have one of Patrick Carden's in my collection, from memory, he flew with both 582 Squadron as well as the quite remarkable 139 Squadron, with this latter, as "assistant" Master Bomber on several occasions.
Kind regards Frank

Hi Frank,

I totally agree with you that an eagle, unless provenance is given to what it truly is, especially with regards to 8 Group, is just an eagle. That's the reason I always question those that offer such and item and normally no proof is had!

I also agree with what you are saying re the Pathfinders and the different types of fixings though was the original question not the initial issue of this badge and their fixings? I think we agree, going by your comments, that the utilitarian was a later edition to the fixings of this most honoured award. Sorry if I've got that wrong with what you're saying.

I also had the pleasure of knowing Patrick and I also had the honour in hosting him at many of the PFF Functions we both attended at RAF Wyton. However, as far as I remember he flew with 35 and 582 Sqns! I have the Sqn Operation Record Book for him and his Ops.

If you're ever in the Cambs area you'll be made more than welcome to visit the Heritage Centre.

Cheers for now

Johnny

Hello Johnny,
There are certainly PFF Sealed Patterns on screw posts, but, these are the same eagles as those already extant and in use as cap badges, all the other eagles with all the various fittings and fixtures we have discussed, that were used as PFF badges, again, were already extant, certainly, to the very best of my knowledge, when 8 Group was formed.
What I am suggesting, is simply that the badge with the distinctive pin was not extant and in use as anything else, it was made as a PFF badge, but I rather doubt, before 1945.

Pat was a truly great man, the absolute cream of his generation, he had learned to fly in an Avro 504 in the early thirties, when I knew him, he was very busy, despite his age, I do remember he had been appointed as the Wings Appeal Officer of the Burnham branch of the RAF Association, of course, he was just down the road on Church Street in Burnham itself, only a few miles away from Harris and his wartime HQ.
So he had a lot of paperwork to do, but, always made time for me, a very kind and sincere man, his DFC was well deserved.
I suspect, just thinking back, I am not correct regarding 139, not having the original 414's to inspect, one is left with those Form 540 and 541 in AIR 28 so I think I might have confused him with another fellow.

Yes, I must come down for a chat sometime, I am more of a fighter type really, but, all very interesting indeed.
Kind regards Frank

attributed to 7 Sqn DFC holder. several aves in group with a variety of fixings.