Boyles Yukon Machine Gun Battery Cap Badge
 

Can someone clarify whether the collars belonging to Boyles Yukon MG Bty were worn as a Cap Badge?

If so could you post a picture or make reference to wear your information comes from of either a soldier wearing a collar as a cap badge!


Thanx in advance for clarification!;)

rob mad4thcef

Boyles Yukon Machine Gun Detachment Photo and Collar Badge
 

FYI

I have attached a photograph of Boyles Yukon Motor Machine Gun Battery.

The Yukon Motor Machine Gun Battery served with the 4th Canadian Division E Battery, the 1st CDN Motor Machine Gun Brigade CEF 16 August 1916.

Unit Strength 6 Officers- 94 Other Ranks

Disbanded 16 August 1916

Due to the fact this was a small unit and consulting with some old time collectors etc. I am convinced that collar badges were worn as a cap badge.

The dimension of the collar are Height 1.5 inches and Width 1.4 inches.
The cap badge is approx double the size of the collar and are RARE and expensive!:(

Note the picture of the collar comes from the recent auction on ebay! It sold for $800.00 US. :eek:

The photo shows most of the group in stetsons. IIRC, there was no badge worn on that headdress. That raises the question of when the hat badges were taken into use? If the unit wore the stetson overseas, they would not have had many badges made.
The supposition that the unit wore the collar as a hat badge is a sound theory. Several other units wore collars as cap badges due to shortages. The 9th wore the 101st collar badge as a cap badge for a period of time, and there is photo evidence that some officer's recruited into the 159th wore the collars of the 97th Algonquin Regiment.

Boyles MG
 

Hey mad4thcef
I do not have the final answer on this badge but you would not believe the amount of hostile emails I received from a few certain collectors/experts telling me that this was a collar. One person was at least kind enough to send me photographic proof that it was a collar. When I changed the listing to reflect this I received another email from a well known collector telling me that yes it is a collar but they also wore them as cap badges. Sorry I cant be of more assistance to you in this matter
regards
Dave

Hi Gents. Just found this while searching on the subject.Hoping this helps a bit.
Jo
http://whitehorsestar.com/photos/sto...great-showing/

A photo of Joe Boyle.
http://www.yesnet.yk.ca/schools/proj...aphics/joe.gif

It is hard to tell which pattern cap badge they are wearing in the group photo. Could be the CMGC with Canada scroll or maybe the Yukon badge?

CSC (Signals) collars were also worn as cap badges during the First World War. To this day there is an ongoing debate about small caps, large collars but evidence points to the same sized badge being used for both uses.

Boyle's Battery
 

The collar dogs are gold panning pans about the size of a Canadian 25 cent piece. The are marked "Yukon" and "Canada" and have a gold nugget in the pan that is roughly four times the size of the nugget that is on the badge. I have one.

Is there some confusion here? I understood that the collars with YUKON / Canada and the nugget (gold for officer's, a copper one for OR's) was for the Yukon Infantry Company. The collars for Boyle's were leaf pattern with Boyles Yukon MGD Canada on the badge. (See CSMMI Summer Issue 2011, plus Charltons' guides.)

Badge
 

I stand corrected.

The Yukon
 

So what I have is an officer's badge from Boyle's battery and an officer's collar from the Yukon company.

Boyle's Boys
 

Also, since the collar for Boyle's Battery was a maple leaf inscribed MGD, all of the discussion regarding the wear of collars as badges must be wrong. Perhaps there is a problem discriminating between OR and officer badges? Either way, the device with the crossed machine guns can only be a hat badge.

At the risk of confusing things, the answer to the question is no. There is also a unit designated the Yukon Motor Machine Gun Battery. This is the formation that wore the cross Vickers MG badge that is found in collars and a cap badge.
It is not clearly documented, but it is likely that Boyle's only actually wore the MGD pattern badge. If they wore a cap badge, it was likely the MGD badge. OR's of the unit may have wore the Stetson, on which no badge was wore, while officers' wore a forage cap, and it is suggested that the MGD badge in gilt was worn on that headdress. Both cap and collars were the same size.
The Yukon MMG badges came in two sizes, on a cap and one a collar. The cap badge scroll attaches inside the MG handles, while on the collar badges the scroll extends beyond the handles of the Vickers. Evidence suggests that due to shortages the collars may have been worn as a cap badge.
Having said all this, the badges (all three) are rare, and seldom seen.

Boyles=MMG
 

It is my understanding that the "Boyles" appelation is a nickname only and that the official title of the unit was the Yukon Motor Machine Gun Battery. So I think we're only talking about one unit here. If that is the case, then the crossed machine gun devices, regardless of variation, should be hat badges only, with the maple leaf bearing MGD as the collar insignia. I'll go to the Canadian Directory of History tomorrow and try to sort this out. It is quite interesting and I'm impressed at the level of knowledge that you have on these things.

It may be one unit, but re-named and re-badged. There are definitely two different size MMG badges in slightly different styles as indicated in my earlier post. These are identified as the cap badge and collars.

Boyles
 

You are right! I just found a photograph of a captain wearing a service cap with the original Boyle's badge. Clearly visible in the picture are the collar insignia in the same, slightly modified form. I've also seen a photo of Boyle without a cap and he is wearing the 'maple leaf' collar insignia. Obviously, this unit had a number of variations in the accoutrements over time. Amazing variety for such a small unit.

A "Boyle's" boy.
 

Here's the photo.

I apologise that this post will add nothing to the value of this thread, usually Canadian badges would not have interested me that much (Leinster Regiment ((Royal Canadians) excepted).

But living now south of one of the lakes I find that Canadian military insignia, especially those Great War and earlier is fascinating. I have enjoyed these threads.

Keep it up you are generally very objective ;) and always interesting.

Yukon Motor Machine Gun Battery badges
 

Just to let you all know that even though the reference to the 28-3 badge in this CEF portion of this site is refered to as Boyle's Yukon Machine Gun Battery, this is wrong. I have just recently written an article in several well known Canadian collecting journals about these badges after over 35 years of research dealing with these units. In all my data I have from the LAC and other collectors, no where does it mention that this is Boyle's unit. It IS simply Yukon Motor Machine Gun Battery and should from now on be refered to as this. Maybe this should be changed on the CEF portion of the site ? My suggestion if you wish to change this. Boyle's men did serve in this unit but so did members from the Yukon Inf Coy and even members who were not from the Yukon having been transfered in. By the time these badges were made for the unit, Boyle was off in Russia and Romania have a grand adventure. Boyle never wore these badges. I do have pictures of what badges Boyle, and the members when the unit was first formed, would have worn and be happy to send along to the CEF section of this site. If anyone has any questions I would be happy to hear from them and discuss this.

Boyle
 

Boyle certainly wore the maple leaf shaped collars as I have a picture of him (hatless) with the collars plainly evident. These collars include the inscription "Boyle's" in the banner, this in addition to the prominent MGD at the center of the collar. The association between Boyle and the Motor Machine Gun Detachment is clear on this collar.

Hello Tim, and welcome to the Forum. Most of my comments were based on your article in the CSMMI Journal.
The YMMGB identity has been intertwined with Boyle so thoroughly it will take a lot of education to get collectors to change to the correct terminology. I am not sure how we change 50 or more years of collecting "wisdom". Charlton's First World War Canadian Corps Badges calls the cross Vickers MG badge "Boyles Yukon Motor Machine Gun Battery". Perpetuation of the mis-nomer is embedded in the references.

"Boyles" Yukon Motor Machine Gun Battery
 

So, I went to the Canadian Forces Directorate of History and Heritage today to see what their take on the Boyle's vs Yukon nomenclature was. Here is what their documents say:

An establishment was authorized for the Yukon Motor Machine Gun Battery (then Boyle's Machine Gun Detachment) and it was attached to the 2nd Canadian Mounted Rifles as that regiments machine gun section on 18 February 1915.[H.Q. 593-12-1 dated 30 July 1917 (NAC, RG 24 vol. 4665, file HQ 593-12-1)]. Upon arrival in England, the unit was attached to Eaton Motor Machine Gun Battery on 26 July 1915.[Canadian Machine Gun Corps History] The name changed unofficially to Boyle’s Yukon Motor Machine Gun Battery in July 1915; and was redesignated Yukon Motor Machine Gun Battery on 14 June 1916.[History of CMGC p.33] On 16 August 1916 it arrived in France and was attached to 1st Cdn Motor Machine Gun Brigade.[History of Canadian Machine Gun Corps, pg.35] On 5 June 1918 it was absorbed by 2nd Cdn Motor Machine Gun Brigade.[2nd Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade, extract from Canadian Corps M.G. 25-5 5/75 dated 5 June 1918, filed in RG 24 Volume 1835 File GAQ 9-15]

The Yukon Infantry Company was organized as the 17th Machine Gun Company in February 1917.[RO 689, dated 16 February 1917]. The company was absorbed into the 2nd Cdn Motor Machine Gun Brigade 5 June 1918.[2nd Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade, extract from Canadian Corps M.G. 25-5/75 dated 5 June 1918, filed in RG 24 volume 1835 file GAQ9-15] This unit was disbanded 15 November 1920 [G.O. 209/20]

The Second Motor Machine Gun Brigade was organized in Ourton France (5 June 1918) by absorbing Yukon Motor Machine Gun Battery, Eaton Motor Machine Gun Battery, and the 17th and 19th Motor Machine Gun Companies. [2nd Canadian Motor Machine Gun Brigade, extract from Canadian Corps M.G. 25-5/75 dated 5 June 1918, filed in RG 24 Vol. 1835, File GAQ 9-15]The unit was disbanded 15 November 1920 [G.O. 209/20]

Tim Popp's article on Yukon badges is in the latest Military Collectors' Club of Canada Journal. Excellent article. Rather than infringe on copyright, I would encourage interested collectors to join the club so that they can read the article for themselves.

Phil