Royal Canadian Engineers CEF GvR Cypher
 

I am requiring a bit of clarification about the 2 badges posted here.

The badge on the left CDN Engrs MS.14 G.O 105/1902 or Charlton 70-1-1-6.

Listed on the CME museum website under Badges

Non Permanent Force Conception -1936 Worn during the CEF period

Permanent Force 1903-1904

The badge on the right Royal CDN Engrs MS.16 post 1910

GvR Cypher (King George 5) Who reigned from 1910 when his father King Edward VII died in 1910 until 1936.

My major point being was the badge with the cypher worn during the CEF period if not worn by all was it worn by some the 1914-1915 veterans.

Can anybody provide me with definative proof that it to was worn during WW1
personally I believe it was King George reigned through WW1.

Thanx in advance

Isn't the question... when did the Canadian Engineers become The Royal Canadian Engineers? The badge would follow...yes?

Permanent force became Corps of Royal Canadian Engineers in 1903. Corps of Canadian Engineers was the militia arm, and according to Wikipedia, they didn't adopt the same badge as the regular force corps until the two components (militia and permanent force) were merged April 29, 1936.

Don't know about the GV cypher badge being worn by CEF engineers, but it would have had to have been limited to permanent force engineers if it was.

There is an entry on Coulson Norman Mitchell on Wikipedia with a pic that shows him with the militia type badge. My guess from the sounds of it is that everyone who enlisted for WWI was, in effect, militia and not permanent force.

In 1904 the prefix Royal was granted by the king!

Iam just looking for proof in the pudding since the first badge was worn by the
CEF for sure !

What I am not sure is wether the cypher badge was worn but all accounts it would be due to king George being the reigning monarch!

Simply put the first badge would be the most common and the 2nd badge would be the least common or scarcer variety???

Thanx in advance !
Rob

Hi Rob, David has given the essential answer. The permanent force engineers wore the GV pattern badge. But there was only a very small number of them. The CEF was a different legal entity than the permanent army, and officers and soldiers of the permanent force had to be seconded and legally enrolled in the CEF. The mobilized or recruited engineer troops were taken on as Canadian Engineers non-permanent, not as permanent force. Thus the only engineers entitled to the GV cypher badge were the permanent force. In 1914, the permanent force was only two fortress companies a field company and a number of detachments. By 1915, all the RCE officers had been dispatched overseas, having been seconded to the CEF or attached to British forces. Only 25 commissions were granted in the RCE during the war.
The RCE history indicates that March 15, 1915, a GO was issued making all units formed for the CEF temporary units. That would make the engineer units like the militia and thus it would only be the CE badge for newly raised sappers. Those transferred would likely continue to wear their badges.
Hope this makes sense.
(Information, in part, from Love's A Call to Arms and Kerry and McDill The History of The Corps of Royal Canadian Engineers Volume 1,)

CE Overseas
 

Bill nailed it. The CE badge is the badge worn by Canadian Engineers overseas during the Great War. The RCE GRV is not generally associated with the overseas Engineers. As was stated earlier, the CE and RCE did not merge into one unified Corps until 1936.

Thanks Bill and Ed,

This clears things up !

One point to make is the British Royal Engineers badge from WW1 has the GVR cypher on it!

Which can make one wonder???

I haven't seen the other variety of the CDN Engineers Cap badge CEF that is not listed in Charlton it is suppose to be longated ?

Does any one have this variety?

Thanx in advance!
Rob

Rob, Some more clarification? The badges wore by the CEF Canadian Engineers were actually the militia pattern CE badges. There are many many varieties of that pattern badge around, but I am not sure which badge you are asking about?

A few more pictures of the badges in question http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../badges430.jpg

differnet beaver sizes ,crowns, wreaths http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2.../badges428.jpg

Thanks Jim, A person could spend a lot of time collecting all the varieties of engineer badges.

Thanx Jim

m13 I believe is the one I am talking about!

Sorry to rehash this old thread. What the difference (usage) of the M13 and M14 badges. I recently found one of each. The round M13 variety has "Toronto 1918" on the back. The oval M14 is unmarked.

Thanks

Here is a photo of Major Edison Franklin Lynn, D.S.O., M.C. MID...... (I have his medals and some badges in my collection.....)
He was according to his records that I can find was a permanent force Engineers (but still looking) but went overseas with 2nd Field Company Engineers from Toronto......

Mike