14th/20th King's Hussars Beret "Crewman" badge backing
 

At various times between 1965 - post 1988 (?) qualified crewmen of the 14th/20th King's Hussars below the rank of sergeant with a B1 wore a badge backing divided diagonally in equal portions of Oxford blue and primrose yellow.

C E Audax covers these details in his excellent book " Badge Backings & Special Embellishments of the British Army"

I have illustrated the backings in question below but before I start making holes to mount the Hawk on them can somebody please tell me which is the correct way to do it?

Is it Blue to the left or right?

Even better can anyone provide a photograph of this backing being worn?

Best wishes

Gordon

14/20 H hat flash
 

Hundreds of photos of 14/20 H over the post-War years here:

http://www.1420h.org.uk

But could only find one flash as illustrated - on a desert hat in Libya
1960s:
Attachment 89105

Hi Mike

Many thanks for your reply, very much appreciated.

I have looked long and hard at the photograph and am still none the wiser. I have , however, sent an email to the Noah's Arc researcher and now await his response.
I will post his reply on the Forum as and when I receive it in case anyone else is having sleepless nights worrying about this problem!

Best wishes

Gordon

14/20th
 

Gordon,
I have one of these, away at the mo :) . Back next Wednesday . Will post info and badge on my return.
Tony Cribb

Hi Tony

Many thanks; safe return.

Gordon

As a member of the Forward Repair Team (B mech seconded because of lack of A mechs) supporting the 14th/20th at the time I can say that although they know how to wear their badges they didn't know how to treat their tanks. I never worked with a regiment that blew as many engines.

The backing being worn ......

Hi Griff

Wonderful resolution, thank you very much.
I assume this patch would have been worn the same way on the beret by those qualified to do so.

Best wishes

Gordon

14/20
 

Email sent.

Hi Brian

Many thanks, very useful; see my reply.
Sadly we are not home yet.

Best wishes

Gordon

Hi Mike

I note you tried to PM me. My Inbox is now empty, grateful you send again.

Gordon

Worked alongside these chaps on a number of occasions, and I must admit that I only ever saw a Primrose Yellow oval being worn behind the black 'hawk'.

Marc

Hi Griff

I have tried taking measurements from your improved resolution of Mike's photograph with the aim of discerning the size of the patch.

In his book C E Audax states they were 1.5 inches square. The ones I have, given me by a WO2, 14th/20th KH, are 1.75 inches square. The patch on the picture looks even larger so perhaps we are looking at a similar but different patch altogether on the "desert hat?"

Gordon

Gordon

The patches you have could have been cut from the larger patch on removal from the item they came from? They certainly look as though some scissors have been used to cut them away....

"You may say that but I couldn't possibly comment"

To be fair to them the early days of Chieftain in BAOR were very fraught and lots of regiments suffered from pack failures.

Gordon

Griff

I don't think so. At the time I was at the RAC D&M School at Bovington and the WO2 was one of my instructors. These are as issued in the regiment prior to being stitched on the beret but I agree they aren't perfect.

Gordon

Hello Gordon

This backing is proving elusive to find images of in wear, that is as a badge backing on a beret.

I have looked through the journals I have which range from 1958 to 85, admittedly with large gaps, and have images of everything but!

I have also asked around on your behalf, and one chap recalls serving along side the 14/20H in Singapore and believes he saw this backing being worn then. So I'm thinking A Sqn. c.1970 according to you ref.
Still waiting for replies though, so will keep you posted.

Rob

Hi Rob

This one is proving almost as difficult as 18th Hussars buttons!

I'm certain it was worn. The problem is which way up? Quite a few members are working on the solution so I remain very optimistic that one (or more) will come up with the answer. The most likely outcome is as posted by Mike as worn in the "desert hat".

Many thanks for your "Hawk" perusals and efforts to date.

Best wishes

Gordon

Gordon

Certainly if it was worn as a backing, then I agree its a fair assumption that it was worn as per image on 'Desert Hat'.

I'm guessing that this would be stitched into position on the Beret, and I'm just wondering how many individuals would have bothered unless it was statutory, considering it was apparently worn during the same time as the Primrose oval backing? Hence the difficulty of finding images?

Its also occurred to me that having a variety of badge backings within a regiment, whilst not unique perhaps, is a little, lets say 'untidy'. I have a suspicion it may well have been either one or the other universally in practice?

Lastly, there are quite a number of regiments that have 'Crewmen' insignia, all of which are /were worn on the sleeve, is the 14/20H the only regt. to have transferred this distinction to headdress insignia?

Rob

Hi Rob

You raise some interesting points.

I'm inclined to agree with your view that it would have been worn as per the desert hat but I have received information to the contrary from an ex
14th/20th Hussar, via another forum member. That view has been referred back and enquiries will continue with other ex-members of the regiment.

I think that both this patch and the primrose yellow oval would have been worn at the same time if only to show up a black hawk on a dark blue beret. Bear in mind these patches came into being when the hawks were painted black under regimental arrangements and had none of the gilt relief which we saw once the production was placed in the hands of the government contractors.

As to other regiments wearing distinctive qualification headdress badge backings there are probably others (which no doubt other forum members will now tell us about) I hope.

There is still more to come on this; I remain optimistic

Best wishes

Gordon

This a clue?

I find all this rather confusing!!

Info just received...it was as said a trades flash but was done away with as all had the trades required, but was reintroduced in 1985 for Instructors to mark them out to the trainees.
My head hurts......I'll get me coat!
General opinion points this way as shown!

Just to highlight... hard to tell if the Hawk is on it?

Brian

Well done, and actually confirms in a way, what I suspected they all 'had the trades required' so they could all wear it. Perhaps that's what happen, they were all wearing it, and somebody said what's the point.

I don't see a Hawk clearly in your image, despite Griff's wonderful efforts, but I think I see an oval something centre top of the flash. Could it possibly be a primrose badge backing?

Thanks for posting this as its something I've never seen.

Regards
Rob

14/20th
 

Afternoon all,

Here ya go,this example in my 14/20th collection

Regards

3748 Hussar

Tony

Thank you and very interesting, but it sort of puts the Cat amongst the Pigeons.

We are now looking at a different configuration.

So firstly, I would ask are you sure your example is correct, in the sense of, has it provenance, or have you seen this Backing in wear in this manner? or have you any photographic evidence, and secondly if correct which period does it date from 60's/70's or later?

Regards

Rob

The one being worn in the pic is defo on a square not a diamond.

14th/20th King's Hussars Beret Patch
 

Hi Brian

Many thanks for all your help; I think we may have found the answer now.
In summary we seem to have five options:
The desert hat, showing Blue to the Top and Left
The flag showing Blue to the Top and Right
The flag showing Blue to the Top and Left
The Saladin(?) commander wearing the beret showing the patch Blue to
Top and Left and
The example on a diamond, Yellow left/Blue right in Tony's collection

In addition I have found the Information Board in front of a Saladin. (I must acknowledge the help of the 14th/20th King's Hussars website NOAH's Arc and trust that this infringement is acceptable if only to settle a query relevant to the regiment and hopefully of interest to their readers as well.)

So what conclusions do I draw?

The weight of evidence seems to me to come down on the side of the desert hat, the second flag, the Saladin commander and the Information Board all of which indicate that the patch was worn (squarely) on the beret with the Blue half on Top and to the Left (as you look at it!)

To all those who have participated in this little gallop through a seemingly flippant and lack lustre aspect of badge collecting please accept my grateful thanks.

Good hunting

Gordon

Not strictly relevant but I think the image shows a Scorpion (tracks and small) not a Saladin (earlier generation, wheeled and big). Mike

Mike
I think you are right, as the turret hatch configuration is wrong for a Saladin.

Rob

Some good examples here of both Crewman patch and Yellow Oval etc....

Re Diamond patch.
Message from 14/20th.. friends this am.
'Brian, Take no notice of that.
It is Royal Blue left, Primrose right on square as Bob put it.
We never wore it as a diamond shape.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
(there was a comment about ebay but we won't go there!)

14/20 H
 

Brian,

Many thanks

3748 Hussar

Scorpion or Saladin
 

Hi Mike

Look behind the Commander and you will see a Pistol Grip. The rest of the gun is covered by loose stowage.

That Pistol Grip is the friendly end of a Gun, Machine, Calibre.30 Browning,
M1919A4. These MGs were mounted at the commanders' station on Saladins.
(as indeed they were on some Mks of Centurion)

The guns mounted on Scorpion, Strker, Sultan and Scimitar were 7.62mm GPMGs.

Best wishes

Gordon

14th/20th King's Hussars Beret Badge Backings
 

For those of you who are now losing the will to live one last post on 14/20H beret badge backings.

No.1. The Primrose oval backing, initial issue obtained from the regiment
mid '60s, showing the first edition of the reversion to the black Hawk. These were painted under regimental auspices. This was formerly a gilding metal badge with no makers name on the slider.

No.2. As no.1 but now aa made by SMITH & WRIGHT LTD.

No.3. First issue by government contractor, aa made by J.R.GAUNT B'HAM

No.4. As worn on the Beret Patch, the subject of this thread.

My thanks again to all for your help and perseverance.

Best wishes

Gordon

Scorpion CVR(T).... did the Saladin CVR(W) ever have tracks? I thought we flogged them all (Saladin) to the OMAN & Kuwait mob....

Good point Griff well made! Nobody's perfect!

Slight slip of the keyboard there, it was the Information board I was really trying to portray, but thanks for pointing it out.

Best wishes

Gordon

Misunderstanding.
 

Hi Mike

Reading through this thread again I see I have misunderstood your comment above. I thought you were referring to the photo put up by Sketchley Kid of the Commander sitting in the turret with a square patch on his beret.
I have now realised you were commenting on my photo of what is clearly a Scorpion and not a Saladin as I stated in my comments.

Please accept my apologies and disregard all reference to M1919A4s and GPMGS please.

Best wishes

Gordon

I retract that comment, as the picture is taken from the back of the AFV the turret facing forward. My apologies, it does appear to be a Saladin or ?.

I would like to add that this AFV was by all accounts a splendid piece of kit, a little over designed perhaps and hard to maintain, but I am told, many lads believe it should have not have been removed from service without a comparable replacement.

The use of such a AFV would have been a most useful in our involvement in both Iraq & Afghanistan in recce & support.

I would be interested to hear from anyone who has crewed in a Saladin.

Thank you.

Rob