Unknown AAA unit formation badge.
 

Hi All
I have 2 metal plates off a vehicle which I need to identify.

One is a standard red over blue RA TRF with the number 164,

the other is an all blue background with a RED, 6 spoke wheel with one of the diagonal spokes extending beyond the wheel forming an arrow.

Any ideas ?
Richard

Although the unit serial 164 on RA plate was in use in WW2 (an unidentified AA Regt RA in an AA Gp in Second Army) the formation sign - 5 Army Group (AA) Royal Artillery (5 AGRA) -is post-War. Those, like myself, interested in the restoration and use of WW2 and other British military vehicles would very much appreciate an image of the actual plates. Mike

164 was a spare number in the AGRA(AA) sequence for Corps troops from 1959 onwards.
Keith

Thanks. One more number for the records! Mike

Picture attached.
I have found online that 5th AGRA was formed in 1943 and was part of XXX Corps ??.
Richard

This is the formation badge for 5th Army Group RA (Anti Aircraft) 1950-1962, BAOR, not the WW 2 AGRA.

Marc

Thanks. Is that plate about 6 x 6 inches square? Mike

Bigger...8 or 9 inches square. Came off a 1939 AEC Matador. Under the plate the original timber body was unpainted therefore the plate we thought was original to the bodywork. The '164' plate is identical in size and condition as well.

Any idea what unit this badge is for ? Its the only pic I can get !!
Looks like these are more modern made but were on top of the older plates on the vehicle.
Attached...
Richard

95 AGRA
 

Late 1940s vintage - 95 AGRA(AA)(TA). Based in Newport or thereabouts. I have a note that the sign was obsolete in Oct 48. Mike

Here is the '164' number found on the Matador tailgate. Also the back of the two together. Also the tailgate showing where they were attached. (Note also the where the smaller troop/vehicle number plate was attached above these plates (same both sides)).
I am still not convinced these are not WW2. There is no evidence to the contrary that the badge was not used during WW2. As the IWM state is only probable that the badge was adopted when the 5th AGRA was reformed post war, but thats not a definite. Some AGRA's did have their own badges. If the AGRA number 164 was not allocated post war, what was this 164, we have, allocated to ??


Both plates were fixed with horizontal screw positions meaning the arrow was pointing North East.
Richard

To muddy the waters further, the WW2 Royal Artillery Commemoration book does not record a sign for 5 AGRA. Of course that does not mean they did not have one.

Marc

They might, like 9 AGRA, have adopted an unapproved sign. Mike
Attachment 183744Attachment 183745

I don't know exactly which units constituted 5 AGRA but on 30 November 1943 while serving in Italy the units allotted to 5, 6 and 10 AGRA all had serial numbers in the 300 bracket.

When 5 AGRA went to Europe and became Army Troops (2 Army), it was allotted the serials 1191-1199 according to Hodges and Taylor, British Military Markings. The formation sign was that of the Army under which they came for command.

Also the AGRAs belonged to 15 Army Group in Italy and may have used a formation sign appropriate to that formation rather than an individual one. More importantly is that AGRA had white horizontal or diagonal lines on the plate in conjunction with the number, denoting their senior formation, i.e., army group, army, or corps.

Three figure numbers starting around 100 without any formation distinguishing bars were a distinction of a Corps Troops unit of the late 1950s in UK forces.

Keith

5 AGRA (AA) had 30, 44 and 77 HAA Regts, 35, 72 and 74 LAA Regts until it was disbanded in 1958.

Also 150 AAFC Bty.