What uniform is this?
 

Hi all,

This uniform is locally on sale and I am just wondering what unit it is (is it royal marine??) Staff sergeant. Also what period - kings crown obviously.

Thank you for your help

http://static3.nagi.ee/i/p/998/39/24959903f3f1d2_l.jpg

http://static3.nagi.ee/i/p/998/39/2495990154db4e_l.jpg

http://static3.nagi.ee/i/p/998/39/249598990bbd08_l.jpg

http://static3.nagi.ee/i/p/998/39/24959897999fbc_l.jpg

Hello

The button shown in close-up is that of a Colonel from the time of Edward VII (1901-1910). This would not seem to match the other insignia on the uniform, so possibly the buttons have been added at a later date.

Roger

The initials on the epaulettes say RMC - Royal Military College. But which one? I don't know whether it could be the one in Kingston, Ontario as I'm not up on RMC insignia. Maybe Bill or another Canadian can answer that.

David

Thanks guys! Why Canadian?

David, he is a SNCO of the HQ staff at the Royal Military College, Sandhurst, quite probably an orderly room clerk. This was a mirror image of the same system used in the HQs of artillery 'brigades' (before re-designation as regiments), cavalry regiments and infantry battalions.

These men, collectively known as 'staff sergeants' (with the same sense as staff officers) fulfilled specialist roles in command and staff functions and, as well as the unit/establishment's principal sergeant major (after 1881 reorganisation made a warrant officer) and quartermaster sergeant (assisting the QM), there were such esoteric posts as the master tailor and master cook, as well as the instructor of musketry and orderly room clerk.

ALL these 'staff sergeants' (and the few WOs) wore extra gold lace on collar, shoulder straps and cuff decoration to make clear their status. On the previous pattern tunic (before 1902) with jam-pot cuff, the cuff lace was a straight, horizontal band, but with the mitred cuff (pointed) it became a simple tre-foil knot. As these superior tunics were publicly funded and expensive, what you have is a very rare survival and the pattern used between 1902 and 1914.

All these staff sergeants had a rank and appointment, with the former varying according to the arm of service from whence they came. Thus an infantryman might be Colour Sergeant (rank) and Orderly Room Clerk (appointment), whilst a cavalry equivalent would be Staff Sergeant (rank) and Orderly Room Clerk (appointment). This causes great confusion for those not familiar with the British system, because at that time the term staff sergeant was both a collective designation for a group of specialists working in an HQ, and an individual rank for SNCOs in some corps and regiments of the army. In 1915 many (but not all) of the staff sergeants (collective term) became warrant officers of the new, class 2. Others lost their status as new technologies and new policies rendered their specialism outmoded, or much less important.

P.S. The button is correct for a member of the permanent staff at the RMC during the reign of Edward VII.

For Phaethon: This would be a very good buy. To put it in perspective it is the exact same tunic as would have been worn by battalion staff of the RDF between 1902 and 1914, but with RDF buttons and collar badges and RDF and grenade embroidered on the shoulder straps piped in bullion wire. It is exceedingly rare because there were so few, relatively, of these posts in each 1,000 man battalion. For many years these men also wore the superior 'staff badges' mentioned in the infantry badges section of the forum and, before 1902, also wore the special, officer pattern forage caps to mark their superior status even from a distance. The 'parent unit' of the man who wore the tunic is quite likely to have been one of the Irish infantry regiments (i.e. Royal Irish, Dublins, Munsters, Leinsters, or Connaughts).

Thank you so much Toby! Great information!

One more question to clarify - does anybody would be any ideas of the fair price..is so, can you please send me a message;)

Hello Toby

Many thanks for the information given above, in particular your note "P.S. The button is correct for a member of the permanent staff at the RMC during the reign of Edward VII".

In all my years of button collecting I have never seen this pattern of button (in a military context) described as being anything other than that of a Colonel. I have come across some examples of this button which I would not normally have considered as being officer quality, ie not spun back and not that good a finish, so your explanation might possibly be the reason.

Just goes to show what you can still learn from this Forum even after years of collecting.

Roger

Toby, thanks for enlightening me. When did the Royal Military College Sandhurst become Royal Military Academy Sandhurst?
David

David the RMA Woolwich and RMC Sandhurst were merged as RMA Sandhurst in 1947. It was an idea that had been mooted for some time, but WW2 got in the way and delayed things.

I have learned some more, startling information about the tunic, but cannot divulge it until it is secured. All is not quite as it seems.

I have KGV and KGVI RMC / RMA caps, as I recall they bear the "Brigadier and Colonels button" as per the KEVII one shown on the photo of the tunic but with the appropriate Kings cyphers.

Thanks, Toby. The plot thickens with the tunic. Can't wait to hear what you've discovered.
David

Hello David,

I am sorry for the delay. The interesting discovery is that, although the tunic is the same pattern used for infantry staff sergeants, it is in fact a Cadet Colour Sergeants tunic from the old RMC Sandhurst and of the pattern worn by cadets between 1902 and 1914. It is marked with the name - Robert St Leger Fowler, who for a short time became famous in cricketing circles:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_St_Leger_Fowler

In a regular infantry battalion a Colour Sergeant in a rifle company would not have had gold lace and it was only the Colour Sergeants holding staff sergeant 'appointments', e.g. the Musketry Instructor and ORC (if senior enough) that wore the extra lace. After 1915, and the introduction of CSMs in the companies, things began to change.

Hello Toby,

Thanks for all the extra information. Where's that Thank you button when you need it?

David