RIF collar grenades
 

Would welcome information concerning this trio of early RIF collars.
From top to bottom they are gilt/gilding, brass, wm. All with original loops.
Especially curious as to by whom worn and time-frame also, if poss.

Thanks
GTB

hi GTB, the white metal collar badge was worn only by RIF pipers including pipe sgts, this w/m collar would've been worn up until 1953 when a silver coloured anodised aluminium collar was manufactured to replace the w/m ones. regards john

Thanks for the information, John

GTB

In the response below CC refers to Colin Churchill’s book

That grenade was a long lived design with the regiment. Its first sealing was as part of the two piece sealed pattern number 1722 first sealed in 1888 for tunic & frock.

That horizontal grenade design continued in use, which changes of metals and fixings until SPN 16145 was sealed in Gold AA on 12/02/1954 for wear with No 1 and No 3 Dress [LC 6135 of 12 July 1954 and CC p283].

Thus your GM grenades may have been worn in theory anytime between 1888 and c. 1954 depending on the order of dress by other ranks.

Any with a single loop in GM can be dated to post 1951 by virtue of having the single loops fastening introduced under LC4483 of 01/03/1951.

This grenade would not have been used much in the 1930’s-1950’s when service dress was near universal. The vertical grenade configuration SPN 10132 sealed 15/10/1926, being used on service dress.

It remained the badge approved for full dress and though in theory could have been worn on the blue patrol jacket of the full dress pattern used for walking out , it appears as if the RIF did not wear collar badges on blue patrols , at least as evidenced by a photograph of Tug O' War Team in Faugh a Ballagh July 1939.

Initially sealed for tunics and frocks these horizontal grenades were again used for SPN 2648 sealed 13/10/1890 [WO359/5 p221 and CC p283]. According to CC the change in this pattern was a modified Princess's Coronet with strawberry leaves that did not touch the crosses paté. These badges were renewed as SPN 4163 in 10/1894 [CC p283].

So to sum up examples of the other ranks GM full dress and frock collar (less coronet) worn from 1888 to c. 1954. With the badges more likely to have been heavily used in the period c.1888 – 1914 (after which the orders of dress they were designed for were not in regular use). The grenade was not worn on the F.S.C. - the coronet part of the collar badge pair was.

One can be very specific with the WM pattern. SPN 3800 was sealed 09/06/1923 for Sgt Pipers & Pipers for use on Full Dress, No 1 and No 3 Dress. In 1926 a vertical version was sealed for no 2 dress. It remained the badge for full, 1 & 2 dress until replaced by silver A/A. I do not have sealing data for the A/A silver collars but Cavalryman mentions 1953 above.


John

Thanks indeed John, for a very thorough and informative response. I need to go through it step by step as I may be confusing versions. It's a pity that there were no illustrations to complement your info - that would be the cherry on the cake!
When you say 'vertical version', do I take it you are referring to the version as used on headdress?
Further to this thread, I have gone through a previous thread for RIF badges (headdress) and you mentioned something about the bronze pattern and its usage. I have a bronze badge with (presumably) silver separate centrepiece (plumes & harp) that has been darkened. There are 2 sweatholes at back. What befuddled me for a moment is the presence of a lug (typical copper loop) at top just behind upper part of flames, and directly beneath this loop a small bronze rectangular 'shelf', as if this was a support for the loop! Of course, this may be nothing more than the horizontal part of a slider, and the loop brazed on as a means of attachment - but only one loop at top!
I am attaching a pic, but only of the front I'm afraid. Comments most welcome.
GTB

GTB,
I think the badge shown has been part of a cap badge. The vertical collars have the Eagle rather than the Harp & POW feathers and have the coronet above.
Eddie

GTB

Hopefully the following will held.

Left to right below, not to scale.

SPN 1722-1888, The introduction of the grenade which replaced the cypher as the second part of the collar badges

What might be SPN 2648-1890, Churchill claims no change to grenade just minor changes to coronet - note strawberry leaves do not touch the cross.
other changes after this appear to be merely die renewals - no design changes

The vertical collar badges According to CC p283 these are SPN 10132 sealed 15/10/1926, note nothing to do with the cap badge except that they resemble in outline form the FSC badge SPN 4475 - 1897 that I show at the very end.

SPN 3800 sealed 09/06/1923 for Sgt Pipers and Pipers.

The Silver A/A version of the same (SPN Unknown to me)

The WM vertical grenade for No 2 Dress: SPN not clear from CC ps283/284 but thought by some collectors that SPN 10132 sealed 15/10/1926 was a composite Pattern covering both BM for other ORs and WM for PM and Pipers.

Finally SPN 4475 sealed 12/01/1897 for the FSC broadly similar to collar badge SPN 10132 but note separate grenade and different flame pattern.

Hope this helps, pm me your contact details and I would be happy to pass on my research notes for private use if of interest.

Thanks a lot, John.
I can now begin to make heads or tails of some of my items. What I am discovering is that a lot of unofficial tampering has been done on some of my insignia, changing from collar to badge and vice versa, and it hasn't helped that these are same sizes!
Will pm you soon
Thanks again

GTB

This badge is a headdress badge and the fact that it has sweat holes leads me to believe that it is not an OSD cap badge in a conventional sense but is a die stamped brazed O/R badge that is darkened deliberately of otherwise.

I would have expected a slider or two loops it appears from your description that it may once have had a slider but has only ever had one loop

John

ROYAL IRISH FUSILIERS THREE PART COLLARS
 

In an old edition of the Royal Irish Fusiliers journal dated 1933. In the letters to the editor section, the current band sergeant is inquiring if the whole of the 2nd Battalion, or only the band wore the three part collar badges ( sphinx coronet and fuse). This was in response to and old photo of the band he had been shown. I've not seen the reply to this, would be an interested answer.

Actually it does not have sweat holes as such, only the 2 tiny holes drilled to take the pins of the silver/wm devices. Sorry to have misled you.
You may well have a point regarding extraneous coloration of the badge, but I am a bit sceptical here. The look and feel of item rather tips the scales in favour of authenticity, but that's only my opinion.
It is not die-struck but die-cast.
I confirm it has only ever had one loop, just above where slider (I presume) was originally attached. The 'remnant' of slider is dk bronze, almost black, as is the whole back of badge.
Have made a rough sketch
GTB