N.Z.P.& T.C. "CELERITAS" also Moari Warrior "KIA MATE TOA"
 

Hi can anyone tell me anything about this badge please? N.Z.P.& T.C. is this Air Force or postal services?

The Moari Warrior "KIA MATE TOA" This badge has a Gaunt Tab, think it is Bore War? Period any information would be appreciated cheers billy

From 1921 to 1935 the New Zealand Post and Telegraph Corps badge was worn by the New Zealand Signals.
Thanks to Chris Walker.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...t=zealand+post

Hi Billy,
The Maori warrior badge is for the 8th (Southland) Regiment, dating from 1911. Unfortunately like so many of these badges it is minus the tip of the taiaha (long club).
Cheers, Tinto
I should add the Maori inscription means "Die bravely".

From 1912 to 1921 the New Zealand Post and Telegraph Corps badge was worn by the New Zealand Post and Telegraph Corps.
Check out post #40 in the following thread.
http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...t=14865&page=3

The correct (original) Maori inscription for the 8th (Southland) Regiment was 'Die Game'.

It is interesting that out of 3 translations "Die bravely," “Die Game, “ and “Fight unto Death” which is mentioned by Dave Corbetts badge book as being the translation for “Kia mate toa,“ only Die Bravely is a literal translation of Die Game.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...psrzqkzkxf.jpg

Hi Brent,
Thanks for the archival information. Interesting to note that hat and collars were to be the same size.
Cheers, John

Being part of the website kiamatetoa.com ,I have never found who designed the 8th Southland company badge .And why Southland ,being the least populated Maori province ,chose a Maori warrior as its emblem .Some questions I would like answered

Hi Iain,
I've also wondered who designed this badge.
I have this item, possibly silver, about 2mm thick, which may have been a prototype for the badge. There are obvious differences in design which surely wouldn't be there if a copy of the issued badge was being made.
If you want it for your collection send your address by private message.
Cheers, John

Puk I am not surprised you have drawn a blank on the designer of the 8th Southland badge, but the choice of why a Maori warrior was chosen, I believe you need to look at your local Maori history.
I can think of two great Southland Maori Chiefs that the badge may have been modelled on, Te Whakataupuka who fought off Te Rauparaha’s invasion of the upper South Island, and Tūhawaiki who killed Te Rauparaha’s ally Te Pūoho at Tuturau who led a war party to the South in 1836.
I am leaning toward Tūhawaiki who was considered as the “most powerful chief in the south” and went on to sign the Treaty of Waitangi in June 1840.

I will be honest, I have never visited the kiamatetoa.com website before, but it is interesting that a website that “provides key information for families, students and historians” has the translation of “Kia Mate Toa: Fight Unto Death”
It seems that John and I are both convinced that the translation is Die Bravely and not Fight Unto Death.

Perhaps a fourth translation “Brave to the Death “on the following post card (which is another literal translation of Die Game) is another nail in the coffin for “Fight Unto Death.”

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f3...psf7f0y5dx.jpg

Unfortunately we can not ask the late David Corbett ,author of ''The Regimental badges of New Zealand ',why he chose Fight unto Death for the motto translation .

Puk although it would be interesting to know the source, I too see no point in digging Dave C up to find out, but do think the kiamatetoa.com website should include "Die bravely" which is the most common historical translation of Kia Mate Toa.

Fair enough Brent, taken on board ,the literal meaning of kia mate toa is indeed die bravely /gamely .There is no argument there .


I did find a reference in a period paper that referred to kia mate toa as ''fight till the end '' (papers past).
Maybe D.C had some anecdotal reference to justify his statement or maybe he just made a mistake .Time will tell.

Hi all,

I was a member of A coy 4 Osouth before it become 2/4 RNZIR.
We were told at the time that kia mate toa was Fight unto death.

Just thought i would throw another spanner...

Thanks

Dan

Another spanner, pic is from the Garrison in Invercargill.

Not my photo, apologies for the quality.

https://i.ibb.co/rp77pwh/123655077-1...77732408-n.jpg
upload pic

No spanner at all.
Fight unto death is a modern version, and most fitting for the Otago/Southland Company which it represents.

However, it is the 8th Regiment Southland Rifles and their motto that was approved in 1911 that we are talking about, and the best way we can honour the memory of those who served during WW1, is to get their translation right, that is Die Game or Die Bravely.

As Puk alludes to in post No.12, if you type in “KIA MATE TOA" into Paperspast between the dates of 1911 to 1920, you will find it translates to Die Game or Die Bravely, and even if you adjust the date to 1950 there is no mention of Fight unto death.

https://paperspast.natlib.govt.nz/ne...ate=31-12-1950

Taken from Paperspast dated "5th SEPTEMBER 1911"

Attachment 234371