WW 1 56th Division
 

Is this the correct formation sign for the 56th Division?

56 Division
 

Yes - a "short sword" colloquially referred to at the time as "Wat Tyler's Dagger" - the weapon forms part of the Armorial Bearings of the City of London and the design was selected by the GOC, Maj Gen Sir Charles Hull.
(Divisional and Other Signs, by Capt V Wheeler-Holohan, 12th London Regt, 1920)
The same weapon reappeared in WW2 and was worn by 56 Inf Div Signals. Mike

56th London Division

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=46258

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=46256


http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/for...ictureid=46257

Tim

Mike is of course quite correct in saying the short sword of 56 Division was known as 'Wat Tyler's Dagger', and attributed to the armorial bearings of the City of London, and I am sorry to be pedantic about it, but truth is the sword depicted in the City of London arms is the Sword of St Paul, and not Wat Tyler's dagger.

From memory, the Wat Tyler dagger was (and probably still is) kept at Fishmongers Hall, London, and looks nothing like that of 56 Div emblem.

I suggest the emblem adopted by 56 Div was a depiction of the short Roman sword to commemorate the Roman past of the City of London.

The idea of the 56 Div sign being Wat Tylers dagger and all same City of London armorial bearings was probably dreamed up by an imaginative journalist, but it stuck, and will probably be so referred to for ever more.

Regards,

John

John,

You are quite right, but as I said, it was a colloquial reference to what the soldiers called the weapon and was recorded as such in 1920 - when memories were still fresh. The colloquialism lived on through to the 1940s and 56 Inf Div Signals. Here's a 1917 dated reference with outstanding artwork:
Attachment 103221

56 Signals
 

Mike ,
Do you have a picture of the 56 Div. Signals that you could post?

Thank you
John

Thank you gentlemen for your educational responses.

Mike, if possible, I would also like to see a picture of the 56th Infantry Division Signals formation sign.

Herewith. There's also an image in the Imperial War Museum collection showing three soldiers wearing the flash sitting on the banks of the River Arno (?) fishing! If I can find it, I'll post that too. In the meantime:
Attachment 103267

Further to the above:
Attachment 103271

Mike,

Thank you very good pictures

John

I note in this photograph the cats tails are facing to the rear and the divisional sign does not have a sword superimposed on it, i.e. the infantry version.

In the 1950's I wore the armoured division version of the badge, with red sword superimposed on the black cat, and dress regulations were badges worn with the cats tails facing forwards.

Perhaps the way of wearing the badge changed with the role of the division, or perhaps it was a regimental thing. Can anybody please explain.

Thanks,

John

The sword was only introduced into the design of the 56th Division sign in Jan 48 with the entirely new sign for 56 (London) Armd Div (TA) - a blue knight's helmet on red sword on white rectangle. This was replaced in 1950 by the familiar black cat - Dick Whittington's of course - with red sword superimposed. I do not know whether the definitive WW2 black cat was "tail left" or "tail right" - and I don't think that the Division was obsessive about facing pairs. FM Sir Gerald Templer when commanding the Division in Italy was concerned that some of the cats were getting too fat and instructed that future production should feature a slimmer beast. Mike

Thanks Mike, perhaps with our tails up front we were the Inf Bn. HAC....well......just being the HAC..........

You mention the white with blue helmet badge, and oddly enough it is only early this morning I put in a bid for one on Ebay to fill a gap in my collection, to replace the one I gave away ten years ago, just before returning to England after a long absence and thinking I could easily replace it when I got here. Ten years later I have got round to doing something about it..

Edited much later to say I got lucky and won the item at a very low price.
Regards,

John

Thanks Mike for posting photographs of the 56th Division Signals formation sign.

I recently purchased a Pattern 49 BD jacket with the post 1950 Black Cat with sword of the 56th Division, the tail goes to the rear. It is shown here:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...psd92de848.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...psdc5a6a94.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/10...ps204c7222.jpg

The jacket is dated 1952 and it does seem a late usage of the P49 as the Queen's Regiment did not come into existence until December 31, 1966 if I am informed correctly. It is named (I prefer not to say to whom), but he was a member of D Company.

Can anyone tell me if the Crown pierced by the arrows on the right sleeve is the flash of the Queen's Regiment?

Thanks in advance for any information and corrections.