2nd VB York and Lancaster Regiment OSD cap badge
 

Hi all,

Ever since I had a read of Ivan's excellent 'A Guide to the Badges of The York and Lancaster Regiment 1822 to 1968' I have been smitten by these badges.

So like when I read a book about a VC winner I had to go out and buy a VC…book about another winner. I did the same with Ivan's but this time I bought another badge.

I believe this to be an OSD cap badge to the 2nd battalion not shown by Ivan in his book.

Ivan does show 2nd VB Y&L BM ORs, NCOs and silver Officers and silver and gilt Officers versions of both first and second pattern but not an OSD example.

In Figure 82 he shows an OSD 1st Volunteer (Hallamshire) Battalion cap badge with the 1st VB Y&L as an integral part of the badge whereas mine for the 2nd VB has it around the scroll as per the Officer silver, NCOs and ORs versions.

It has a depression behind the crown and rose as per the 1st VB badge in Figure 182 and as shown in OSD collar badge in Figure 111.

The badge has long copper loops on it and these appear to be replacements from the shiny brazing.

The plot thickens as Churchill in his collar badge book states that lugs east-west signifies a cap badge for the 2nd VB whereas north-south is for collars. These were worn 1904-1908. Ivan has them 1902-1908 for Officers of the 1st VB. I had expected that the lugs might have been replacement for blades but have not found a reference for blades on 2nd VB Y&L badges.

Anyway a badge I didn't have, cheers Dean.

Dean,
very nice and some interesting info too!

Andy

Cheers Andy I keep plugging along.

Something special about VB badges, cheers Dean.

Dean,
You can say that again, a veritable magical mystery tour! lol :D

Andy

Dean, a very nice badge and thank you for your comments about my book!

In my opinion, this is an OSD CAP badge that used to have blades and has been crudely fitted with lugs (and why not, the blades can sometimes be fragile and easy to break).

Looking at the reverse, I would say from the oblong indentation behind the Coronet and the indented outline of the Tiger that this is a Jennens and Co badge.

Its one of several varieties of scrolls that can be found,
1. sometimes with the VB as part of the outer scroll (as in yours),
2. sometimes with a scroll below the ground the tiger is on and
3. sometimes as an added soldered on scroll.

I believe that this mirrors the evolution of the OR's badges in that at first they were made with the VB scroll soldered on and then with the VB scroll stamped as part of the badge.

The 1st VB badge I have attached has its VB scroll cast as part of the badge and is on blades. It is made by Jennens and Co.

The 2nd VB badge I have attached has its scroll soldered on and is, like yours, on crudely fitted replacement lugs. Incidentally this particular image of this exact badge has been lifted from here and now resides on a certain disreputable dealers website to fulfil his fantasy of owning an extensive Y&L collection. Don't be surprised if your images also appear there Dean!

I'm not sure Churchill is correct with his assertions about east-west or north-south lugs signifying collars or cap badges as I have seen photographs of collars of both the 1st and 2nd VB's being worn WITHOUT the VB scroll but with the cap badge bearing the VB scroll. I have plenty of collars with lugs and have attached a photograph of an officer of the 4th Bn wearing them in 1915 (worth noting they are NOT worn in facing pairs).

With regard to the dates quoted, again I believe that Churchill is incorrect with his date of 1904 as not only is there reference in the York and Lancs archive to new OSD badges being purchased in 1902 'for new uniforms' but Army Orders 10/1902 - 40/1902 & 251/1902 were published outlining army dress regulations regarding the wearing of OSD (thanks to Graham Stewart for that reference). So to me, the start date of 1902 is correct.

Obviously these badges were not worn (officially anyway) after 1908 when the volunteer battalions became part of the Territorial Force.

Thanks, Ivan

Ivan,

Great information,

Thanks for posting.

FMT600

Dean,

Great find, want a nice badge, an exact example of which I never owned (even before I sold off my pre 1914 Y&L badges).

The confusion in the plethora of variations of VB Y&L badges was one of the reasons I gave collecting the early ones and decided to stick to post 1914. Ivan's comments on it and the Y&L OSD VB badges in general is great.

FMT600

Thanks for the additional information Ivan and comments Andy and FMT600.

A badge with some history for sure, would agree on bladed when first worn.

Cheers Dean

Here's my 1st VB OSD Collar badge for comparison.

Good to see thanks very much Andy - I note the similarities in construction accepting the difference in location of the VB title.

Cheers Dean