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-   -   FAKE ANODISED (NOT THE SCOTTISH ONES!) (https://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5983)

Alan O 20-04-09 02:46 PM

FAKE ANODISED (NOT THE SCOTTISH ONES!)
 
1. Following on from Chris' thread about restrike a/a badges I have the following list of anodised badges in existance which I believe were never issued to the regt (or their TA or Cadet bns) before they disbanded. These badges are die struck (mirror imaged in Chris' parlace) and the sliders are unmarked. All I believe to have been made to order by an unknown badge making company for the collectors market:

Royal Warwickshire Regt
Fife and Forfar Yeomanry
3rd Kings Own Hussars
South Staffordshire Regt
Northumberland Fusiliers
Royal Ulster Rifles (Kings Crown)

2. In addition I do not own but have seen the following:

East Surrey Regt
Suffolk Regt
4th Hussars
Rifle Brigade k/c pattern
Hampshire Carbineers
9th Lancers

3. There remain a third list of badges that have been reproduced by this company with the 'wrong' construction but the design was worn by the units. Examples would include the Essex Regt and possibly the Glosters/Hants 1969 badge.

4. In addition due to the quantity on the market, I am pretty sure that the following badges were heavily reproduced by JR Gaunt Bham in the 1970s-80s. They are die cast and indistinguishable from a contempory badge except for the Gaunt Bham mark. I believe that a true Gaunt's 1950s badge should be JR Gaunt London marked:

City of London yeomanry q/c (never worn by the regt)
23rd London Regt (1958-60)
East Midlands Brigade
Not forgetting the ever so easily obtained SAS

5. There were lots more designs that were made for the collectors market but it is impossible to set them apart from the genuine article.

Thoughts?

Alan

bess55 20-04-09 04:59 PM

fake anodised
 
Hi Alan,
The nitty gritty of anodised collecting!

Ok my experience of your sections are as follows:-

1. I have with blank sliders and do not consider original:-

Royal Warwickshire Regt
Fife and Forfar Yeomanry
Royal Ulster Rifles (Kings Crown)

However i have 3rd Kings own Hussars stamped Firmin London, although this I doubt to be original. The origins of this badge (i.e the reunion etc) have been explored at length here.

My South Staffordshire Regt is stamped Firmin London (nice clear stamping), die cast badge, flat blank rear,appears to have been worn with typical wear at the top of the slider and generally presents as any good 'real' anodised cap badge.

Northumberland Fusiliers. I have several of these, many have clearly been worn with wear on the slider and the face of the badge, maker marked Firmin London and J R Gaunt London. The Firmin and Gaunt badges are clearly from differant dies as they have slight differances.

2. I have with a blank slider the obligatory Hampshire Carabiniers Yeomanry, which is clearly not real and I dont think is even made of alluminium, perhaps tin or some other alloy.

However my Suffolk Regt appears cast and has a slider marked H.W Timmings. This particular anodised badge has been mentioned on another thread as there is an example for sale on Ebay. My example appears cast and is not 'mirrored' fully on the rear and looks much like many good badges. However on closer inspection the stamp it appears suspect.

My East Surrey Regt presents as a well made, nicely cast badge, J R Gaunt London marked slider.

KC Rifle Brigade. Well, I have two of these one blank slider and one marked H W Timmings Ltd B.Ham. They are differing dies. Whilst I am aware of the dubious reality of this badge being made let alone worn in anodised alluminium, I have to say the marked slider example appears fine, slider correctly adhered with a nice clear stamp. Both examples do have some 'mirroring' on the rear.


3.
My Essex Regts are cast with sliders marked Dowler Birmingham and Firmin London, both differing dies, plus an example with a blank slider which appears from the same die as the Dowler example.

Gloucestershgire & Hampshire Regt, I have examples marked J R Gaunt London Ltd and Dowler Birmingham. (incidentally should this have badge come with a gilt back back ?)

4.
City of London yeomanry q/c and 23rd London Regt I have both marked J R Gaunt B.Ham as you state.

SAS, well I have examples marked J R Gaunt B.Ham, London Badge & Button Company (also all gold by this maker), Firmin London manufactured black (yeah, right) and an example with lugs (and no not the very distinctive Rhodesian Reutler type).

5.
Well I would add to the above South Wales Borderers as a well faked badge and clearly comes from the same school as the KC Royal Ulster Rifles and the Fife and Forfar Yeomanry, we all know the type . . . very thick alloy , mirrored back and un marked slider, the badge being in pristine condition and never been worn. I also have a Bedfordshire and Hertfordshire Regt which I dont like. Thick, odd finish and a very poor Firmin London 'offset' stamp on the slider . . . hmmm.

I would add 5th Bn Seaforth Highlanders which is of the same construction as the Hampshire Caribiniers . . . . a bit 'tinny' in construction but presents like anodised alluminium. Also I have an example of The Welch Regt with a blank slider, thick guage alloy and unworn.

Berkshire Yeomanry (silver) with slider marked Firmin London. Not convinced about this one either as I have some nice cast examples with lugs.

Clearly there are more but these are all I can recall at present. Obviously some of the rarer or indeed never produced anodised badges were in fact made by someone, I would guess mid 70's for the collector, either directly to decieve or just to be purchased by collectors. This subject has and hopefully will be discussed at length. To commission an out and out fake/reproduction anodised alluminium badge surely cannot come cheap, so once again it must beg the question why do it, although clearly it would appear to have been done. Would a manufacturer commission a run of under 100 hundred units? Any more and the potential deciever would flood the market. If made by an established anodised badge manufacturer, why are they of a clearly differant quality to a regular badge and of a differant process?

Another oddity is when we see clearly original badges with unmarked sliders. Anbody know why?

As ever, my commentry alone and am happy to be corrected at any turn.

Regards all

Bess

Alan O 20-04-09 05:37 PM

Thanks I suspect that I need to move the SStaffs, East Surreys and the NF to the catagorey of 'made but also faked'.

I have a few blank slidered badges that are not die struck and are flat backed. I presume that these are just ones that have slipped throught he stamping process as they are to such modern and mundane units that i doubt that they are faked.

Your point about flooding the market is a good one but that has happened with the SAS, 23 Londons, 5th bedfordshires TA and even the CofL Yeo RRs are relatively common.

Alan

NorthStafford 20-04-09 06:33 PM

In 1958, prior to the amalgamation, I trained in the North Staffords. We were in a mixed squad of North and South and all wore metal badges non a/a. On amalgamation the regiment became part of the Mercian Brigade and wore the Mercian (Eagle) cap badge. On the demise of the brigade badges the Staffords wore the Staffordshire Regt badge and the TA battalions became the Mercian Volunteers and continued to wear the Eagle.I can think of no time when the South Staffs (or North) wore a a/a badge.

Alan O 20-04-09 06:44 PM

The SStafs stays where it is then! North Staffs are so common I don't think that there is any doubt that these have been restruck.

While we are on the subject about Staffs, K&K show an anodised (probably not a/a) Staffordshire Knot as the 5/6th Bn badge in 1968. Gaylor repeats this but I have never seen another example. I can find no record of this badge being worn and I suspect that it was some sort of collar. Hugh King's badge that was shown in the book was sold at Bosleys last year and was not a/a at all. I suspect this was one of Hugh King's rare mistakes. Any thoughts?

Alan

ukbrits 20-04-09 06:55 PM

South Staffs
 
Hi Alan,
There is a post by Forum member Mark Blackburn with a quote about the South Staffs a/a badge being issued to The Regiment in a book by Guido Rosignoli.
search for "South Staffs badges" posted on the 22.07.08 by Mark Blackburn.
Hope this helps.
ukbrits

Alan O 20-04-09 06:58 PM

Back to the other catagory with it then!

Alan

Paddy 20-04-09 07:55 PM

Hi All

I have had a quick look at some of my anodised badges and have found the following:

The ones that look right:-

East Surrey - Flat backed - Gaunt London stamp - Consider genuine.
Northumberland Fusiliers - Very solid 2 part construction with silver detail rivetted on to gold grenade - Gaunt London slider - certainly looks right.
North Staffs - Flat back - Gaunt London slider - Consider genuine.
South Wales Borderers - Flat backed - Dowler B'Ham slider - Consider genuine.
Suffolk Regt - Semi flat back - Timings slider - Jury out on this one.
23rd London Regt - Flat back - Gaunt B'Ham slider.

The ones that don't look right:-

South Staffs - Mirror back - Blank slider.
Essex Regt - Semi flat back - Blank slider.
Royal Warwickshire - Mirror back - Blank slider.
Welch Regt - Semi flat back - Blank slider.
3rd Hussars - Mirror back - Blank slider.
Royal Ulster Rifles KC - Mirror back - Blank slider.
Rifle Brigade KC - Mirror back - Blank slider.

The not so sure ones:-

9th Lancers - Flat back - Blank slider - looks right.

Glos & Hants - Semi flat back - JR Gaunt London LTD slider (only gaunt slider I've got with LTD on the end).

Paddy

Alan O 20-04-09 08:21 PM

You do find some original badges (your Welch could well be OK) with blank sliders. I have a few common ones with blank sliders which I really doubt are repros. Their construction is generally solid backed.

Alan

Staffsyeoman 20-04-09 09:01 PM

There has also been (last two years or so) a rush of Staffordshire Yeomanry A/A Queen's Crown - the proper crest badge, not just a 'descrolled' South Staffordshire badge - in online auctions. No maker on the slider, but the sudden appearance of several makes me wary.

boots and saddles 21-04-09 01:32 AM

Hi Guys, could you fill me in on what the difference between a die cast & a die struck badge or (die stamped) I know a cast badge or any cast item is made in a mold. but die cast I am not familiar with. (just call me dumb dumb)

Alan O 21-04-09 06:53 AM

Die struck is where you can see a perfect imprint on the back from using an identical front and back die.

Die cast has the front die only and the reverse is either flat or semi- filled in with a indistinct imprint.

Alan

Alan O 21-04-09 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Staffsyeoman (Post 37329)
There has also been (last two years or so) a rush of Staffordshire Yeomanry A/A Queen's Crown - the proper crest badge, not just a 'descrolled' South Staffordshire badge - in online auctions. No maker on the slider, but the sudden appearance of several makes me wary.

I know the badge - it is the Officer's pattern badge and as I understand it was not worn by the regt who wore the brass knot and crown up to amlgamation. You can also buy a Gaunt Bham marked metal version which ties in with the thread about 1970s Gaunt Bham badges.

Alan

hagwalther 23-04-09 06:37 AM

Hi Alan,

Sorry to be so late here but will get into this on the weekend.

Been having to make ammo and doing a fair bit of TR stuff on panzer assault badges (PAB's) at the moment so anodised badges are of the menu for a day or so.

Regards

Chris

hagwalther 23-04-09 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boots and saddles (Post 37331)
Hi Guys, could you fill me in on what the difference between a die cast & a die struck badge or (die stamped) I know a cast badge or any cast item is made in a mold. but die cast I am not familiar with. (just call me dumb dumb)

OK just a quick one.

Die stamping is where a cold piece of thin metal as a blank is placed between an obverse and a reverse (punch) die, put into a press and subject to immense pressure. The reverse die is often a mirror of the obverse to ensure that the thin metal is pressed into all the nooks and corners of the obverse die. The badge then has excess metal from the body edges removed by a further trim die creating the finished body.

Remember the word 'thin' when thinking of the above.

Anodised badges with a mirror reverse die look like they have been made by die stamping and are my big cause for contention at the moment. I believe that at least some have been made from pre-anodised era dies.

Impression cold die forging is similar and the way ALL genuine anodised aluminium cap badges were made. The process is similar to stamping but the reverse die seldom mirrors the obverse as there is no need to as the metal aluminium sheet used is thick enough the get to the obverse detail so long as the reverse die has enough relief to follow the general obverse die profile.

This method also uses a pre-cut blank from a sheet of aluminium. The blanking die used to create the body blank leaves shear marks on the outside edges of the newly created body blank. As such, no trim die is later required in impression die forging as the edges have already been 'finished'.

Remember the word 'thick' when thinking of the above.

Impression hot die forging is like the cold process but the metal is in a semi-plastic state and this helps the dies to last longer as they cut through a softer metal due to the plastic state material. No pre cut blank is used and the badge is cut straight from the metal sheet. Many TR Panzer Assault Badges were made this way from zink around 1941 onwards but I have not heard of this method being used in anodised aluminium cap badge manufacture.

Die casting is something else. Although a lot of late TR badges (1944-45) were made this way under pressure forming where the liquid metal was forced into a sealed two part die. Fakers however, often make their wares by the easier non pressure, open casting method where a mold is made and molten metal tipped into it and allowed to cool. While common in poor TR fakes I have only see one in anodised items (Chaplains badge commissioned by the Chaplains themselves!!!) although I do also have a so called 'experimental' version of one other badge.

In open casting, small bubbles rise to the reverse surface which burst causing cratering which is the major sign of the open die casting process. These bubbles are not present in the forced pressure die casting process.

The above are the three main methods of manufacture of military badges being:

a) die stamping
b) impression die forging (cold and hot)
c) die casting (only the pressure method)

I know of no other methods and the above terms should be used instead of 'die striking' as this term covers both a) and b) above.

Remember all anodised aluminium cap badges were made via the cold die forging method. I know nothing about non anodised aluminium badges but assume that the pre-anodised era only used die stamping as per the one white metal Berkshire Yeomanry badge that I have which exhibits this method of manufacture.

When you understand how specific badges are made you can start to spot the fakes and also get alarm bells ringing for those questionable pieces like 'mirror' back Scottish pieces.

Hope this helps.

Regards

Chris


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