Royal Naval Division Machine Gun Battalion
 

Good Morning All

I know these badges have been a subject of hot debate and until now I've passed up on quite a few and got caught out on a couple of one piece versions in my early days. I've now just picked up the one pictured below, it came with a genuine MGC cap badge and pair of shoulder titles and there was no hard sell on the RND bit. As these badges were purportedly put together in field workshops this is the type of construction I have always considered to be expected under those conditions. I believe both parts are genuine, the stumps of the hexagonal lugs are still visible and the solder is old and dull (not as shiny as it looks in the picture). The badge has an even polish across the front and the polish residue is in all the nooks and crannies and doesn't look false or recent. As usual people are going to have differing views so I'm opening it up to see those views.

As usual, many thanks in advance

Paddy

Hi Paddy

Well done. Looks good.

John

Hello Paddy,looks a good one to me also,if I was lucky enough to find one i would be happy with I would want it to have the look of your badge:D like you had a couple that weren't quite right so will carry on the search. Gerard

John & Gerard

Many thanks for your comments, I'm certainly a lot happier with it than a lot of others I've seen.

Paddy

OK, I'll throw the spanner in.

The composite badge was made from an MGC cap badge and an RND shoulder title as this one appears to be. If this was the composition they came up with then I cannot imagine it being soft(lead) soldered and to such an extremely poor finish. That badge was done as a one off, I cannot imagine anyone in the workshops that these badges were puportedley made, soldering a couple of bits of metal together in such a sloppy way. There's enough solder on that on to do a 100 badges.

I believe the original to have had the RND title brazed to the front of the MGC badge not with a reinforcing link.

A good starting point would be looking at known original RND MG badges and looking for variations in the gun, and seeing what the date of this particular version is.

Unfortunately I think this is a cobbled together attempt from genuine items neither of which now have much value.

Hi Paddy and all,
Like Jim I also have my doubts about your composite badge in the first post.
I think I have shown mine before but here they are again for comparison. Note the Gaunt plaque on each. The plaque on a MGC badge has also been discussed before and was not usual.
Cheers, Tinto

I must admit looking at the other RND badges gaunt plaque etc i can see what you are saying:o i was not sure how good they were made i thought they had tabs fitted to the RND then to the badge but as always i'm here to learn:D

Gerard

The Gaunt plaque is irrelevant as this was never a Gaunt produced badge.

Lovely to see!

Jim & Tinto

Many thanks for your comments.

As expected this badge usually causes a difference of opinions but I think that’s to be expected given the nature and supposed origins of this type of badge. I am still of the opinion that this is the type of construction I would expect to see for this badge, unfortunately that type of construction leaves it open to be reproduced/copied/faked etc and therefore I doubt anyone can ever be 100% certain it is right or wrong but that doesn’t mean it should be immediately dismissed.

K&K clearly states that the RND title was “soldered” on to the MGC badge, not brazed. If these badges were put together in a field workshop then I believe a hot iron and piece of lead would be more easily obtainable than a brazing torch and rods. When I did my apprenticeship over 30 years ago we were taught soldering using a hot iron, heated in red hot coals, and lead solder, as you can imagine it is rather crude, ideal for large heavy duty joins but not as easy or neat for smaller joins like a cap badge. I imagine making up cap badges in a field workshop would not have been high on the priority list so would they have been too worried about being as tidy as possible, in fact could the task have been given to one of the junior less skilled members in the workshop. As RND shoulder titles were used then I would expect to see some traces of the lugs remaining or at least some sort of evidence where they had been removed.

I’ve seen Tinto’s RNDMG badges in the past and originally I thought that was the type I had to look for. I also believe the Gaunt plaque on these badges is a bit of a red herring as I have my doubts as to whether Gaunt actually made this type of badge. A recent sale (approx 18 moths/2 years ago) purporting to come from the Gaunt collection had a set of RND badges, all 6 Bn badges were there as well as 2 x CPO bronzed badges but interestingly there was no RNDMG badge, surely if the collection came from Gaunt then you would like to think they had a copy of a RNDMG badge, if they made one. Tinto’s badges look like the RND part is die stamped with the standard depression/imprint in the back. All the RND titles I’ve ever seen have been flat backed so I believe, irrespective of how they were attached, that this part of the badge should be flat backed while the MGC part should be die stamped. Tinto’s badges look like they were made in 2 parts with the RND brazed to the MGC, if this is the case then why would they go to the expense and trouble of producing 2 dies to make die stamped lugless RND titles purely for this badge when the amount required could easily be covered with titles that were already in existence. I have one of the one piece badges which is very similar to Tinto’s badges (without the Gaunt plaque though), I’ve had it for years and it is covered in all sorts of crud but I’ve never been overly happy with it but it’s one of those ones you hold on to just in case.

As for comparing with a known good RNDMG badge, I’d love to be able to do that but where can we find such a thing. A few years ago I spent an afternoon in the “attic” of the Royal Navy Museum looking at all the RND badges they have in their reserve collection, the only RNDMG badge they had was a cast brass 1 piece version which had no real provenance so I don’t think it could be held up as a true example.

As usual this badge throws up more questions than answers and I think it is only natural that the majority of people will dispel these badges because they differ from the norm but at the same time a lot of people will readily accept the majority of cast badges as genuine theatre made badges with little or no provenance or even Commando badges made from spoons as long as they don’t have Asda or M&S stamped into them.

Paddy

Is there any contemprary photographic evidence of any man in uniform wearing this badge? Cheers, Bill

Hello Paddy,
I think you have summed up the situation very well. We will probably never know the full story of these badges.
Cheers, Tinto

I agree with Paddy. Tintos badges are in my opinion modern copies for alll the reasons stated. The s/t part is stamped and not a s/t. There are no lug marks as one would expect to see. I bought one many years ago and as illustrated very similar to Paddys. I was very excited to see another so similar. It is exactly what I would expect, rough amatuerish soldering, s/t utilised with lug scars. Made in the field in limited numbers. Any example such as Tintos appears often in huge numbers at odds with what we suposedly know.

Here are images of mine. Bought over 10 / 12 years ago. Allegedly removed from a display in a Naval club where it had resided for years (buy the badge not the story though).

Mine was used in a book recently as a example of a good one, the late forum member Dragonz really rated it too.

I am happy with mine and would be with Paddys. This is only the second example I have ever seen similar to mie....good find. If made as a copy more would exist.

TRT

Paddy, thanks for taking my view in the spirit that it was meant.

We always say "never say never" so I have to keep playing Devil's Advocate on this one.

My greatest problem with this is not whether either piece is genuine, most likely they are. My big problem is the soft solder and the amount of it, a totally amateur job poorly executed.

Where were they made? In the field? Of course not, there weren't people in the trenches joining two badges together so the RN Machine gunners could go and fight!?

Having not really ever pursued this one before I have vague recollections of statements claiming these badges were made in Devonport Dockyard. If this is the case then there is even less argument for soft solder.

I don't have a horse in this race so all opinions and findings are interesting.