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Neil Pearce
27-12-10, 04:44 AM
Happy New Year to all!

One for the Yorkshire guys I think? I know there are a couple here...

I have been rooting around the information and photos I have available to me here, but sadly this does not include Westlakes Book on titles.

Can somebody clarify if the Leeds Pals wore two versions of titles? I have one with "LEEDS" over W.York, and another with "15" over W. York. If this is the case, does anyone have dates? I can only guess that similar to Bradford and Halifax which are numbered 16, 18 and 21 respectively, the number "15" were the earlier versions issued and/or approved when the Battalions were formed. Possibly the "LEEDS" version came later?

Was there a 17th (2nd Leeds)? Never seen or heard of one one these....

Cheers, Neil

raesherwood
27-12-10, 09:38 AM
According to Westlake the 15th (1st Leeds) and 17th (2nd Leeds) (Service) Bns. both wore the LEEDS / W. YORK title (ref 887); The 16th (1st Bradford) (Service) Bn. wore 16 / W. YORK (ref 888); The 18th (2nd Bradford) (Service) Bn. wore 18 / W. YORK (ref 889). In Supplement No. 2 he also lists 15 / W. YORK and 21 / W. YORK for the respective Service Bns.

raesherwood
27-12-10, 09:48 AM
17th (Service) Battalion (2nd Leeds) was formed in Leeds in December 1914as a bantam Bn. Amalgamated with 15th Bn in December 1917. No specific title mentioned.

Neil Pearce
27-12-10, 10:05 AM
Thanks Raesherwood.

So there were two titles, although it's a bit confusing at first. I missed the fact 17th were Bantam, so this makes sense....

The 21st is a tough one.... been looking for ages.

Cheers, Neil

HAMMO2440
11-01-11, 10:35 AM
The 15th/17th Battalion of the West Yorkshire Regiment (respectively 1st & 2nd Leeds) wore the Leeds West York’s shoulder title there is no such thing as a 15th West York’s title to the best of my knowledge. Whilst these titles were quite rare there now seems to be glut of them coming up for sale, which makes me ask the question, is someone knocking out copies? In saying that I have a few pairs and they are all the same with no variation what so ever.

Other West York’s Leeds Battalions being the 1/7th, 2/7th, 1/8th, 2/8th (there were training units/battalions numbered 3/7th & 3/8th), all Leeds Rifles Bn's and respectively wore either the T7 or T8 Leeds Rifles, West York’s shoulders.

Post 1921 7th/8th West York’s wore the Leeds Rifles, West York’s Shoulder, until recently I believed that all these were titles with the T7 or T8 removed, I have however just got one from Buy wise (Bosleys) produced simply as Leeds Rifles, West York’s with no sign of a T7 or T8 having ever being fitted. I have a couple of variations for both the T7 and T8.

The two Bradford pals Battalions, wore 16th West York’s (1st Bradford) and 18th West York’s (2nd Bradford) shoulders, as a point of note I know some reproduction 16th Bn ones were made a few years ago for a TV programme, I don't know how many but they are out there so watch out for those. I have not seen any variations on the 16th but have 2 slightly different 18th ones.

As touched upon the 21st Bn (Wool & Textile Pioneers) is the hardest shoulder to get hold of, I'm happy to say I have 1 but must admit I paid over the odds for it, one of the problems of being a West Yorkshire Regiment nut I suppose.

Nec Aspera Terrant,

Cheers Marcus

Neil Pearce
11-01-11, 11:02 AM
Marcus

The comment on the "Leeds" title is reassuring. There are some "15" ones about, but the majority look "crooked" to me, and have the wrong lugs.

Thanks also for the Leeds Rifles background. We learn every day. I saw the Buywyze one over Christmas, and wondered... had not seen one before.

The two Bradford 18th variations is again reassuring. I have these, and the 16th only one variation, so far.

The 21st is going to be a tough one for anyone, although I am not 100% convinced until a photo or similar is uncovered. Has anyone ever seen one? It'd be great to see one "in the flesh"!

Cheers, Neil

HAMMO2440
11-01-11, 11:13 AM
Marcus

The comment on the "Leeds" title is reassuring. There are some "15" ones about, but the majority look "crooked" to me, and have the wrong lugs.

Thanks also for the Leeds Rifles background. We learn every day. I saw the Buywyze one over Christmas, and wondered... had not seen one before.

The two Bradford 18th variations is again reassuring. I have these, and the 16th only one variation, so far.

The 21st is going to be a tough one for anyone, although I am not 100% convinced until a photo or similar is uncovered. Has anyone ever seen one? It'd be great to see one "in the flesh"!

Cheers, Neil

Neil,
As I think I mentioned in my previous post I have one example of the 21st West Yorks shoulder, and it was not cheap.
Cheers Marcus

Neil Pearce
11-01-11, 11:38 AM
Thanks Marcus, and noted. I was offered a "15" title recently for 150, which I thought was a little excessive! Therefore, I am on my back foot with regard to the 21st. I am not in any way suggesting yours is fake, but they will come up, given their scarcity...

If I manage to locate one, would you mind if I PM you for a pic? I will be on the lookout for the telltale signs of course.....
Cheers, Neil

HAMMO2440
12-01-11, 05:46 PM
Thanks Marcus, and noted. I was offered a "15" title recently for 150, which I thought was a little excessive! Therefore, I am on my back foot with regard to the 21st. I am not in any way suggesting yours is fake, but they will come up, given their scarcity...

If I manage to locate one, would you mind if I PM you for a pic? I will be on the lookout for the telltale signs of course.....
Cheers, Neil

Neil,
It took me 5 years to get a 21st title so yes they are scarce.

No problem for a picture so long as I'm back home at the time,
Regards,
Marcus

AndyC_65
18-03-14, 01:28 PM
Resurrecting this thread for the members viewpoint on ebay listing number 321354215914.

For those who can't see it, the listing is for "ORIGINAL WW1 17TH WEST YORKS OTHER RANKS SHOULDER TITLES FROM THE LEEDS BANTAMS", and the pictures show "W.YORK", as per Westlake 881, and not Westlake 887 (LEEDS|W.YORK).

Does anyone have any proof either way as to which is correct? Is it possible that Westlake has this one wrong?

cheers,

Andy C

LONGSHANKS
18-03-14, 01:34 PM
To my knowledge, the one I posted here is the correct one.

http://www.britishbadgeforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38186

Regards

Simon.

Neil Pearce
18-03-14, 03:17 PM
This is interesting. Can I suggest the seller be contacted? I suspect he may know what he is talking about. Maybe the Bantams did wear these?

I suspect the seller is the author of a recently published Leeds pals book - although could be wrong.
Regards, Neil

AndyC_65
18-03-14, 03:44 PM
This is interesting. Can I suggest the seller be contacted? I suspect he may know what he is talking about. Maybe the Bantams did wear these?

I suspect the seller is the author of a recently published Leeds pals book - although could be wrong.
Regards, Neil

I've already contacted him - I didn't want to prejudice any replies with that input. He stands by what he has stated & is an authority on the subject.

He is indeed brother of the author & co-owner of the Leeds Pal website.

It was just a huge surprise to me - and I was wondering if others had heard this before.

If the Bantams did wear this title, was it just them - or the regulars as well? Where was the differentiator (Cap badge - obviously).

What's your thoughts Neil?

cheers,

Andy C

LONGSHANKS
18-03-14, 03:47 PM
I suppose it boils down to some photographic evidence in the end, or army orders etc.

Simon.

Neil Pearce
18-03-14, 03:51 PM
Hi Andy - pm sent

HAMMO2440
18-03-14, 03:53 PM
Resurrecting this thread for the members viewpoint on ebay listing number 321354215914.

For those who can't see it, the listing is for "ORIGINAL WW1 17TH WEST YORKS OTHER RANKS SHOULDER TITLES FROM THE LEEDS BANTAMS", and the pictures show "W.YORK", as per Westlake 881, and not Westlake 887 (LEEDS|W.YORK).

Does anyone have any proof either way as to which is correct? Is it possible that Westlake has this one wrong?

cheers,

Andy C

Andy,

On formation,

I do believe the 17th Bn West Yorkshire Regiment wore the West Yorks titles and the standard West Yorkshire Regiment cap badge and the 15th Bn West Yorkshire Regiment wore the Leeds West Yorks titles and the Leeds Pals cap badge. Both Battalions were subsequently amalgamated at which time I would have thought the 15th Bn Leeds insignia would have been adopted.

Cheers,
Marcus

AndyC_65
18-03-14, 04:47 PM
Simon, Neil, Marcus - thanks for the input.

I have asked the seller for the photographic evidence, although, that may be difficult, as the 17th Bantams would look for all intents & purposes just like the regulars.

Looks like Westlake may be wrong then. Perhaps wrong is a bit strong, how about "not as correct as it could be". Is there a forum project anywhere that collects addendum to the better known of the reference books?

cheers,

Andy C

oc14
18-03-14, 06:26 PM
To the best of my knowledge, the 17th (Bantam) Battalion wore exactly the same shoulder badges as the 1st, 2nd, 9th, 10th, 11th Battalions. All Battalions (with the exception of the 7th, 8th and 15th) wore the White Horse of Hanover in their headdress. The fact that these titles were acquired with a pair of medals to an original 17th Battalion enlistment proves absolutely nothing. The soldier in question could have served with any West Yorkshire Regiment Battalion during his service and consequently the titles could have been issued whilst serving with any other battalion.
If the titles had been acquired with (say) a 1914-15 Star trio to a soldier of the 10th (Service) Battalion would they now be 10th Battalion shoulder titles - no or course they wouldn't. They are simply WW1 period West Yorkshire Regiment generic titles.
IMO a seller just trying to "sex up" a pretty mundane pair of titles.

Just my opinion of course.

PL